# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1541 "2013-08-24T02:46:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Wisconsin law, despite the lie inherent in the thread title, clearly specifies that the choice of transducer is up to the woman – a vaginal probe is by no means mandated. > > And I am certainly willing, as I have said before, to concede that the law doesn’t work if the numbers don’t support it, but you are not willing to support it even if the numbers show a measurable effect. Cyros’s observation is on point, why would I _ever_ support this legislation? I can imagine Wisconsin or some other venue putting so many regulatory barriers in place that getting an abortion, though still legal, is nigh-impossible and the number of (legal) abortions performed in that venue would drop to near-zero. I’ll gladly admit the barriers _worked_ at fulfilling the misogynistic dreams of the ignorant, but support them? Why would I do that? Are you going to claim that I’m not being “fair” ? Yeah, good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1542 "2013-08-24T02:53:43Z")
By the way, has it occurred to anyone in Wisconsin to _ask_ why women get abortions? I somehow doubt “I dunno what’s in my uterus, but I want it out” is high on the list, hence “informing” women doesn’t really wash as an excuse, does it? I gather negative reinforcement is a bigger vote-winner than positive reinforcement (i.e. offering pregnant women pre- and post-natal financial support ), or at least the Wisconsin Republicans see it so. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1543 "2013-08-24T03:47:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m sure the restaurant will have an “employees must wash hands” policy. You! Yeah, you, don’t tell me your fucking name, don’t come any closer to my table until I see you pass a blowtorch over your fingers! _All_ of them! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1544 "2013-08-24T03:48:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There is some difference, at least in my understanding of sin. But, there is no such thing as sin. There is evil, but it’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1545 "2013-08-24T05:52:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree that I have ever, in the history of this site, advanced an argument that rests on such ludicrous grounds as Lobohan’s does here. No, you don’t do “here’s something you support, here’s a totally ridiculous hypothetical that you don’t support, lol ur a hypocrite”. But you do “here’s something you support. Here’s something that happened 10 years ago that you’ve never heard of before this thread. Are you willing to research it and learn about it and form an opinion about it? If not, you’re probably a hypocrite and/or intellectually lazy, so I win”. Certainly not identical… but similar. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1546 "2013-08-24T12:52:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree that I have ever, in the history of this site, advanced an argument that rests on such ludicrous grounds as Lobohan’s does here. I would say that your argument earlier in the thread regarding people being terrified that fewer abortions would be performed was pretty ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1547 "2013-08-24T18:01:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Wisconsin law, despite the lie inherent in the thread title, clearly specifies that the choice of transducer is up to the woman – a vaginal probe is by no means mandated. > > And I am certainly willing, as I have said before, to concede that the law doesn’t work if the numbers don’t support it, but you are not willing to support it even if the numbers show a measurable effect. How many transducer choices are there? Is there one that doesn’t actually go up the vagina? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1548 "2013-08-24T18:30:16Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > I would say that your argument earlier in the thread regarding people being terrified that fewer abortions would be performed was pretty ludicrous. While not the strongest or best-sourced argument I ever made, I grant, the fervor with which some people oppose any effort to limit abortions in any way does not let me agree with you that it was completely ludicrous. For example, there’s a thread going now about the “Born Alive Infant Protection Act,” in which Der Trihs’ responses can be fairly read to support my thesis. Note in that thread the difference between **lavenderviolet** ’s responses and **Der Trihs’** responses. In all fairness, do you truly regard my statement and **Lobohan** ’s restaurant rectal probe argument to be, literally, equally poor? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1549 "2013-08-24T18:32:33Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Once again, can you answer why he should support it when lowering the number of abortions is not his goal? **Bryan’s** goal, as far as I can tell, has always been to minimize obstacles to receiving an abortion. This goal is not advanced by requiring an ultrasound regardless of the number of abortions prevented. Then Bryan has little business questioning the efficacy of the law in reducing abortions, since he doesn’t care either way. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1550 "2013-08-24T18:41:04Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > How many transducer choices are there? Is there one that doesn’t actually go up the vagina? Good grief, [yes (PDF).](http://www.healthcare.siemens.com/siemens_hwem-hwem_ssxa_websites-context-root/wcm/idc/siemens_hwem-hwem_ssxa_websites-context-root/wcm/idc/groups/public/@global/@imaging/@ultrasound/documents/download/mdaw/mtu1/~edisp/transducer_sequoia_512-00102637.pdf) If you look at the “application” section of each transducer, you’ll see what and where each is intended for use. Contrast page 8’s EV-8C4 Transducer, which is intended for “Endovaginal gynecology, endovaginal obstetrics,” with the 6C2 or 4C1 Transducer on page 2: “Abdominal vascular, adult abdominal, fetal heart, OB/GYN, typical and technically difficult patients.” The law in Wisconsin specifically requires women to be given a choice of transabdominal or transvaginal transducers for the ultrasound,a nd requires that all ultrasound facilities in question have both available. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1551 "2013-08-24T18:44:34Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > No, you don’t do “here’s something you support, here’s a totally ridiculous hypothetical that you don’t support, lol ur a hypocrite”. But you do “here’s something you support. Here’s something that happened 10 years ago that you’ve never heard of before this thread. Are you willing to research it and learn about it and form an opinion about it? If not, you’re probably a hypocrite and/or intellectually lazy, so I win”. > > Certainly not identical… but similar. I still deny I’ve done that, with one possible exception. You might characterize my argument about Massachusetts’s rule switching concerning senatorial appointments of a governor that way. I disagree, but for the purposes of this discussion, I’ll accept it. Have I _EVER_ done that anywhere else? Or is it your position that my use of that one argument in thirteen years opens up the floodgates to Lobohan’s repeated invocations of nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1552 "2013-08-24T18:58:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > While not the strongest or best-sourced argument I ever made, I grant, the fervor with which some people oppose any effort to limit abortions in any way does not let me agree with you that it was completely ludicrous. For example, there’s a thread going now about the “Born Alive Infant Protection Act,” in which Der Trihs’ responses can be fairly read to support my thesis. Note in that thread the difference between **lavenderviolet** ’s responses and **Der Trihs’** responses. > > In all fairness, do you truly regard my statement and **Lobohan** ’s restaurant rectal probe argument to be, literally, equally poor? I’ll spell it out for you: You want a legal procedure to have a 24 hour waiting limit and require a shocking and disturbing video to be shown which does absolutely nothing to improve the procedure and only will serve to intimidate or shame some people from having it. The hypothetical Hindus in the above scenario want to have a 24 hour waiting limit (I added that in a later post) and require a disturbing video that does absolutely nothing to improve the meal and will only serve to intimidate or shame some people from eating it. The finger up the ass was an second scenario. Which would be more apt to compare to Virginia’s _[Rape Dem Ho’s](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/07/news/la-pn-va-gov-bob-mcdonnell-signs-preabortion-ultrasound-bill-into-law-20120307)_ Law that Governor Dipshit was pushing a couple years ago. The one without the choice as to the transducer. In any case, the reason you think the Hindu thing is utterly dissimilar to your position is that it seems absurd. The trouble is that your position _is absurd_. You don’t think it is, because you’ve invested so much emotion into the idea that it’s babies you’re protecting and you’ll support almost anything to save them. But that’s just something you believe. It isn’t real. The idea that the government would mandate stupid theatrics to stop constitutional actions is terrible, and if you weren’t so unable to focus past your visions of little babies being killed, you’d be able to see it. You’re similar to the guys with the abortion trucks with the torn up fetuses printed on the outside. You’re so bound up with your position that you’re willing to break decorum and act like a screaming savage to get your way. And showing a woman who is making the hardest decision of her life a sonogram like that is the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1553 "2013-08-24T19:02:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I still deny I’ve done that, with one possible exception. You might characterize my argument about Massachusetts’s rule switching concerning senatorial appointments of a governor that way. I disagree, but for the purposes of this discussion, I’ll accept it. > > Have I _EVER_ done that anywhere else? Or is it your position that my use of that one argument in thirteen years opens up the floodgates to Lobohan’s repeated invocations of nonsense? Again, your position is the one that’s nonsense. You don’t think it is because you have a view that a brainless fetus is a person. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1554 "2013-08-24T19:21:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then Bryan has little business questioning the efficacy of the law in reducing abortions, since he doesn’t care either way. Now a person can’t have multiple reasons why they feel a law is a bad idea? I don’t think you really mean that. There is nothing wrong with **Bryan** saying that he is opposed to barriers to abortion and that he questions whether this particular barrier will have the desired effect. Showing that the ultrasound does indeed reduce abortion by an appreciable amount in no way negates his position that barriers are wrong per se. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1555 "2013-08-24T19:25:48Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Now a person can’t have multiple reasons why they feel a law is a bad idea? I don’t think you really mean that. There is nothing wrong with **Bryan** saying that he is opposed to barriers to abortion and that he questions whether this particular barrier will have the desired effect. Showing that the ultrasound does indeed reduce abortion by an appreciable amount in no way negates his position that barriers are wrong per se. Yeah, I can only see this as an attempt at misdirection. If you humiliate and shame enough women, you’ll get one to run out of the abortion office eventually. That will lead to fewer abortions. The effectiveness of your humiliation techniques doesn’t suddenly make it morally correct to use them. The very notion is so stupid, I just have to assume that Bricker is just trying to muddy the waters by trying to claim a meaningless win as a sign of the quality of the program. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1556 "2013-08-24T19:32:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > While not the strongest or best-sourced argument I ever made, I grant, the fervor with which some people oppose any effort to limit abortions in any way does not let me agree with you that it was completely ludicrous. For example, there’s a thread going now about the “Born Alive Infant Protection Act,” in which Der Trihs’ responses can be fairly read to support my thesis. Note in that thread the difference between **lavenderviolet** ’s responses and **Der Trihs’** responses. > > In all fairness, do you truly regard my statement and **Lobohan** ’s restaurant rectal probe argument to be, literally, equally poor? Do you truly not see the difference between opposing limits to abortion because one wants to ensure that people are able to exercise control over their bodies and people opposing abortion because theyare terrified that fewer abortions will be performed? I would not count **Der Trihs 's** response as being at all representative of anything but \*\*Der Trihs \*\*. He is, perhaps, unique in his black and white view of the world. Truly, I think that your statement was amongst the best example of a ludicrous and unsupported argument that I have ever read. Had you argued that people were terrified of letting go of control of their bodies it would be equally or better supported by any arguments that I have seen and much less off the wall. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1557 "2013-08-24T20:10:48Z")
Not for those of us who totally love us some abortions, can’t hardly wait to see as many women as possible undergo them. They live in terror that the number of abortions will go down as a result of these procedures. I don’t know anybody like that and nobody here has offered that view. But we are assured that it is so, and who am I to disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1558 "2013-08-24T20:18:27Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Now a person can’t have multiple reasons why they feel a law is a bad idea? I don’t think you really mean that. There is nothing wrong with **Bryan** saying that he is opposed to barriers to abortion and that he questions whether this particular barrier will have the desired effect. Showing that the ultrasound does indeed reduce abortion by an appreciable amount in no way negates his position that barriers are wrong per se. Hmm. OK, true enough. My error. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1559 "2013-08-24T20:20:44Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Do you truly not see the difference between opposing limits to abortion because one wants to ensure that people are able to exercise control over their bodies and people opposing abortion because theyare terrified that fewer abortions will be performed? Well, no – but perhaps that’s because when I said, “…terrified that fewer abortions would be performed…” I didn’t intend to suggest that the lower number was terrifying in and of itself, but rather that they opposed any lowering of the number for other reasons, such as proxy for a loss of control over the issue. In the same way, I might say that someone was terrified of gun show loopholes – not as a literal claim that the loophole itself was troublesome, but as a proxy for the terror that the _result_ of gun show loopholes would be more guns in the hands of unverified purchasers and that this would in turn result in more crime, injury, or death. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1560 "2013-08-24T21:03:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, no – but perhaps that’s because when I said, “…terrified that fewer abortions would be performed…” I didn’t intend to suggest that the lower number was terrifying in and of itself, but rather that they opposed any lowering of the number for other reasons, such as proxy for a loss of control over the issue. > > In the same way, I might say that someone was terrified of gun show loopholes – not as a literal claim that the loophole itself was troublesome, but as a proxy for the terror that the _result_ of gun show loopholes would be more guns in the hands of unverified purchasers and that this would in turn result in more crime, injury, or death. I will certainly grant that may have been the position you felt you were taking but it did come across more that people were just terrified at the fact that the sheer number of abortions would be lower. You will grant that this would be a ludicrous position, I’m sure. I think the responses that you received show that the majority of respondents took your comments in the same way I did. In the meantime, I will sit back comfortable in the knowledge that my government allows this medical decision to be made by patients in consultation with their doctors without interference and we still have a lower per capita rate of abortion than the USA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=79)