# I Pit Hillary Clinton **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 9, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189 "2016-11-09T13:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/121 "2016-11-10T00:23:18Z")
Here’s a theory that Bernie Sanders is to blame. Ordinarily, I think a nominee is not harmed by having been attacked in primaries by members of the extreme wing of their party. Because I think it helps them pivot to the general election when they need to appear more moderate, and having been defined that way in the primaries is helpful in that respect. What was different about this election was that the general election was not really an ideological one. There was very little focus on legitimate issues and focused inordinately on relatively trivial matters like emails, quasi-scandals, and various obnoxious statements by Trump. As a result, the fact that Clinton was portrayed as more moderate than she actually is didn’t help her with the newly attuned moderates. But it did hurt her enthusiasm-wise with the progressive element of her constituency. ---
**Author:** ![HeXen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@HeXen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeXen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/122 "2016-11-10T00:26:47Z")
\*Ahem > [@8 days to go. Who will win the Presidency?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-days-to-go-who-will-win-the-presidency/770320/4): > > If Hillary loses, I’ll eat your hat. I’d like to see this on video please. I’ll wait and put it up on my sig until I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/123 "2016-11-10T00:41:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Here’s a theory that Bernie Sanders is to blame. Dear God, why is everyone twisting themselves into pretzels looking for someone to blame for Trump other than Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/124 "2016-11-10T00:42:31Z")
Because people already hate Trump as much as it’s possible to hate any one person. So they need to look for others to absorb the overload. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/125 "2016-11-10T01:05:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What changes is the sense that the arc of history bends toward justice. It’s hard to believe that things slowly but inevitably get better when a throwback like Trump appeals to tens of millions of people. The “arc of history” view is a bromide that liberals pass around to make themselves feel better. Sometimes the Mongols come in and burn your cities to the ground, throw the works of your greatest library in the river, fill up all your canals, and you never recover. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/126 "2016-11-10T01:10:55Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The “arc of history” view is a bromide that liberals pass around to make themselves feel better. Sometimes the Mongols come in and burn your cities to the ground, throw the works of your greatest library in the river, fill up all your canals, and you never recover. That’s bullshit. Overall–as is pretty persuasively argued in **The Better Angels of Our Nature** –we’re getting better as a species. It has nothing to do with your stupid assertion that it’s something liberals say to make themselves feel better, and you should feel ashamed for saying something so dumb. But in this case, the arc has twisted back on itself. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/127 "2016-11-10T01:35:04Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nice to think so, but on the other hand I wouldn’t discount HillaryZilla lurching back onto the scene in time for 2020. > > I think we might have seen the last of the Bushes, though. 🙂 Well, she sure has practice with concession speeches. 😉 > [@John\_Mace](#): > > … Jesus Ef’ing Christ, Hills, you couldn’t beat Trump??? Well, it shouldn’t be so much of a surprise when you had 2008 handed to you but lost to Obama. I think it was Wolf Blitzer today (not sure) who said something like, “Hillary concedes to the man who crushed her presidential hopes”, and my first thought was, Obama? Bill? Wiener? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/128 "2016-11-10T02:59:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s bullshit. Overall–as is pretty persuasively argued in **The Better Angels of Our Nature** –we’re getting better as a species. I don’t agree. We are just as shitty as our ancestors were. We just have better technology, so we can kill more hundreds of thousands at a time. The Mongols had swords and arrows. We have nuclear devices. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/129 "2016-11-10T03:04:55Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I would consider pitting Hillary Clinton for losing to Donald Trump, but not before I pitted those who made it happen. I’m looking at you, god damn hypocritical Bible thumping “Christian” conservatives. Looks like you got your Christian Jesus guy now, huh? Hypocrite bastards. People are allowed to vote for whoever they want to. It is up to the candidates and parties to convince them to vote for them. That they don’t vote the way you want them to is not their fault. It is yours. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/130 "2016-11-10T03:10:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s bullshit. Overall–as is pretty persuasively argued in **The Better Angels of Our Nature** –we’re getting better as a species. It has nothing to do with your stupid assertion that it’s something liberals say to make themselves feel better, and you should feel ashamed for saying something so dumb. I can’t show it’s a liberal shibboleth. Anecdotally, I don’t think I’ve ever seen conservatives fall back on that sort of humanistic idealism. I associate it strongly with liberals and their conception of progressive history, especially after they take a hit on the chin, like when abortion centers are closed en masse, or black people are shot by police with no repercussions, or when Trump of all people wins. It’s a good coping method. I just think it’s more akin to a religious belief. I don’t believe Pinker is well regarded academically, outside of his field. Similar to Jared Diamond and Sam Harris. His book is fairly contentious. He’s a liberal, as far as I know. My main point is there’s no particular reason to think things will improve. It will take a lot of fighting to get out of this hole. And sometimes you lose. Like the Cathars, Native Americans, or most anyone who upset the Mongols. The arc didn’t bend for them. There’s no reason it has to bend for American liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/131 "2016-11-10T03:14:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Hey asshole, before you go blaming Clinton, maybe some of the blame should go to: > > - The republicans who built a 25-year-long industry out of throwing shit at her to see what stuck > - The media, who gave one such fake scandal three times the total airtime they gave all the issues > - Your stupid fucking republican friends who decided that voting for Trump was a good idea > > One party ran an entirely reasonable, viable politician with a slew of viable, reasonable policy proposals to help people. That party lost. Don’t go blaming us for that shit. Clinton was a fine candidate. The fact that she lost to Trump is not reason to blame her, it’s reason to bemoan how fucking stacked against her the deck was to begin with. I’m going with this. Listen asshole, don’t fucking blame us when your party’s standard bearer sucked up to Trump in 2012, giving the birther-in-chief legitimacy. How many Republicans denounced him? Your party is the party of misogynists, xenophobes and racists. I suppose you are going to now pit the low income blacks who weren’t able to vote because of restrictions your party put on them. My Texan born, racist brother-in-law told me that he quit the Republican party because it changed. Thank god for that. You took the Black-hating, white trash and gave them a good home. Don’t blame Hillary. It’s your party which doesn’t care about facts and is ready to trash America. Go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/132 "2016-11-10T03:41:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I don’t think being a woman is a barrier to the presidency, and I didn’t say that. But in an age where misogyny still lingers much like the darkness of latent racism, it has to be the right kind of woman, judged according to criteria that are much more stringent than how men are judged. Appearance matters, but she can’t be too hot; she needs to be intelligent, but not so intelligent as to be threatening; she is allowed to be somewhat assertive, but not domineering, etc. Hillary didn’t fail in all of those areas – she mainly failed in being unabashedly, aggressively ambitious – a great quality in a man, but not permitted in a woman. > > I’m virtually certain that a male version of Hillary would have easily beaten Trump, except that the opportunity wouldn’t have arisen because the male Hillary would also have beaten Obama in 2008 and would now be ending his second term. > > I don’t want to be misunderstood here. This was a far, far more complex election than merely a matter of misogyny. But Hillary was definitely handicapped by it. No more than being black hurt Obama. If Hillary was a man, she would never have been first lady and her political acareer would never have gotten off the ground. She would be a partner at a law firm somewhere on wall street paying the former first lady hundreds of thousands of dollars for a 30 minute speech to make her feel better about her role in destroying the economy in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/133 "2016-11-10T03:56:17Z")
BTW original “moral arc” text: > [@](#): > > I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice. By [Theodore Parker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Parker) around 1850ish, paraphrased in its short form (“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice”) by MLK at a speech to the SCLC . Notice the original refers to a faith in something long term that you cannot really understand how it will come about. But faith or no, sometimes individual persons or nations will not only never make it to the top of the mountain, but will get clobbered good and hard in the attempt. Does not mean the arc gets interrupted. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/134 "2016-11-10T04:09:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m not saying that they like that stuff, but that they disliked Hillary more. And there was probably a certain amount of “let’s roll this turd in glitter, now that we’ve chosen it.” going on, and that’s what you saw. > > The Trump supporters I know constantly harp about Clinton, Benghazi, emails, Vince Foster, impeachment, lying, dishonesty, etc… But you’re missing my question then. If they didn’t like that stuff about him, yet it at least puts him on par with Hillary (or worse), then why did they dislike her more and completely discount his behavior? It’s like opposing the Hatfields, yet signing up to join the McCoys. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/135 "2016-11-10T04:17:32Z")
I don’t pit Hillary; I pit Barack Hussein Obama who moved the party so far to the left Hillary couldn’t be the naturally centrist Hillary that she was a FLOTUS and Senator. Had she, Bernie would’ve beaten her in today’s party. Barry Hussein Obama moving the party so far left with his stupid “transformational Presidency” is what helped destroy Clinton so badly in the red states and get Trump to the win in the purple states. HE is the one to be pitted. And Obama moved left in his second term too, knowing a successor was to be in order. Hillary was a much better WH shot in 2008; she woulda won then by more than Obama did; [WV was polling for her vs. McCain back in 2008](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/wv/west_virginia_mccain_vs_clinton-631.html). She was [polling well in Kentucky vs him in 2008](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ky/kentucky_mccain_vs_clinton-577.html); [he was piss poor](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ky/kentucky_mccain_vs_obama-578.html). Obama created this mess by being a divisive President and wading into divisive issues in his second term, and now we have POTUS elect Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/136 "2016-11-10T04:22:28Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I don’t pit Hillary; I pit Barack Hussein Obama who moved the party so far to the left Hillary couldn’t be the naturally centrist Hillary that she was a FLOTUS and Senator. Had she, Bernie would’ve beaten her in today’s party. > > Barry Hussein Obama moving the party so far left with his stupid “transformational Presidency” is what helped destroy Clinton so badly in the red states and get Trump to the win in the purple states. HE is the one to be pitted. And Obama moved left in his second term too, knowing a successor was to be in order. Hillary was a much better WH shot in 2008; she woulda won then by more than Obama did; [WV was polling for her vs. McCain back in 2008](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/wv/west_virginia_mccain_vs_clinton-631.html). She was [polling well in Kentucky vs him in 2008](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ky/kentucky_mccain_vs_clinton-577.html); [he was piss poor](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ky/kentucky_mccain_vs_obama-578.html). > > Obama created this mess by being a divisive President and wading into divisive issues in his second term, and now we have POTUS elect Donald Trump. This entire post is bunkum. Just a mess of incoherent hatred and unsubstantiated declarations. Feel free to try again. When come back, bring pie. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/137 "2016-11-10T05:26:58Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I don’t know. I try to imagine a Clinton who had more charisma, or one who blustered about her way through the election like Trump. > > What if she said “Who cares about my emails? Its not against the law and you don’t deserve to see them! I’ll bomb ISIS to smithereens and you want to talk about emails?” Or, on Bernie, she called him a loser socialist who isn’t even a real Democrat, and said his supporters were dumbass college kids who didn’t know a thing about real life? Or on her ties to foreign countries, she claimed that she was building bridges through donations and ties? Or called Trump an orange goblin know-nothing who’s going to destroy America. Would that have won her more votes? I doubt it. If Hillary had said any of these things it wouldn’t have helped her at all. She would have only lost harder. If a parallel universe version of Hillary with more charisma had said any of those things, she would have _definitely_ won the election. Have you ever worked in a call centre? I’ve worked in a few and one of the first things they teach you is that 93% of human communication is totally non-verbal. I forget the exact percentages, but about 60% of communication comes entirely from body language, and the rest is all down to tone of voice, cadence, and inflection. _That’s_ where charisma comes from. It’s not _what_ you say, it’s _how_ you say it. Hillary’s non-verbal communication skills are some of the worst I’ve ever seen. She looks awkward in front of a crowd, she yells into the microphone, her posture is stilted, her sense of humour is _awful_ (remember _“Pokemon Go-to-the-polls”_? Ugh, Jesus Christ…), and she’s basically the walking antithesis of everything a good campaigner needs to be. Now, please bear in mind I’m saying good _campaigner_, not good President. I think Hillary would have made a good President, and I’m 100% convinced that Trump will be one of, if not _the_ worst Presidents America has ever had. But as a campaigner, he beat Hillary hands down. He beat her on body language, tone of voice, humour, spontaneity, stage presence and, most importantly, he actually looked like he was enjoying himself. Hillary only beat him on policy, which most people don’t really care about. And we know they don’t care about it because none of Trump’s flagship policies are remotely workable. Ultimately, it all came down to charisma, as it always does and as it always will. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/138 "2016-11-10T06:00:17Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Enlighten me about how much you think it’s their fault. Because it sounds an awful lot like blaming the mugging victim for being out in a bad part of town at night rather than blaming the fucking mugger. Except that Clinton isn’t the one who got mugged. We are. Clinton was supposed to be the cop who kept us safe from the mugger, except instead of doing that, she tripped over her shoelaces, dropped her gun, and got beat up by the mugger before he proceeded to run off with our wallet. Sure, the mugger deserves the lion’s share of the blame, here, but if the cop can’t stop one mugger, then maybe they should have gotten a different job. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/139 "2016-11-10T06:10:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Except that Clinton isn’t the one who got mugged. We are. Clinton was supposed to be the cop who kept us safe from the mugger, except instead of doing that, she tripped over her shoelaces, dropped her gun, and got beat up by the mugger before he proceeded to run off with our wallet. > > Sure, the mugger deserves the lion’s share of the blame, here, but if the cop can’t stop one mugger, then maybe they should have gotten a different job. Well said, **Miller**. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/140 "2016-11-10T06:24:54Z")
> [@Memnon](#): > > Now, please bear in mind I’m saying good _campaigner_, not good President. I think Hillary would have made a good President, and I’m 100% convinced that Trump will be one of, if not _the_ worst Presidents America has ever had. But as a campaigner, he beat Hillary hands down. He beat her on body language, tone of voice, humour, spontaneity, stage presence and, most importantly, he actually looked like he was enjoying himself. Hillary only beat him on policy, which most people don’t really care about. And we know they don’t care about it because none of Trump’s flagship policies are remotely workable. Ultimately, it all came down to charisma, as it always does and as it always will. Im certainly not arguing against the charisma angle, but I must ask… did you see any of the debates? In every one that I watch, Hillary looked as close to carefree (for the most part) as she is capable of. She looked confident, at ease and happy. By contrast, he came across as a sulking, ill-tempered, two year old on the verge of either a tantrum or a heart attack. He hulked and skulked and snorted and rolled his eyes. He sneered and whined and acted, for all purposes, that he felt like the only way he could dominate the situation was if he physically bullied the people involved. Now, I don’t know if the folks that voted for him want that sort of behavior or if others view that as charismatic, but from where I was sitting and watching, he was about the furtherest thing from it. So, could you elaborate more? Because I’m honestly not seeing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189.md?page=8)