# I Pit Hillary Clinton **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 9, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189 "2016-11-09T13:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/141 "2016-11-10T06:42:56Z")
> [@joyfool](#): > > Im certainly not arguing against the charisma angle, but I must ask… did you see any of the debates? In every one that I watch, Hillary looked as close to carefree (for the most part) as she is capable of. She looked confident, at ease and happy. By contrast, he came across as a sulking, ill-tempered, two year old on the verge of either a tantrum or a heart attack. He hulked and skulked and snorted and rolled his eyes. He sneered and whined and acted, for all purposes, that he felt like the only way he could dominate the situation was if he physically bullied the people involved. > > Now, I don’t know if the folks that voted for him want that sort of behavior or if others view that as charismatic, but from where I was sitting and watching, he was about the furtherest thing from it. So, could you elaborate more? Because I’m honestly not seeing it. Mrs. Clinton was acting; she appears to have never been more comfortable than most people are when they sit on a stool that has half a seat. Mr. Trump was not acting. People respond better to what they perceive as spontaneous than what they perceive as “fake”. Mrs. Clinton just about never comes across as spontaneous (or relaxed, at ease, etc.). So the debates were a wash as far as drawing voters, IMO. They were good theatre, but lousy for influence. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/142 "2016-11-10T07:57:32Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Dear God, why is everyone twisting themselves into pretzels looking for someone to blame for Trump other than Trump? > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Because people already hate Trump as much as it’s possible to hate any one person. So they need to look for others to absorb the overload. Fine. Add the 50+ million people who voted for him. I say that, of course, while the jury is still out (hell, hasn’t even been seated) on the Trump presidency. Shouldn’t those 50+ million be proudly proclaiming their support right now? I mean, if they really believed that Trump would make America great again, they’d want to be the first ones on the bandwagon. Nail your Trump colors to the mast, so that in four years when the deficit is gone and we’re exporting iPads to China, you can say “I helped make that happen!” I haven’t seen much of it. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/143 "2016-11-10T13:03:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Except that Clinton isn’t the one who got mugged. We are. Clinton was supposed to be the cop who kept us safe from the mugger, except instead of doing that, she tripped over her shoelaces, dropped her gun, and got beat up by the mugger before he proceeded to run off with our wallet. To stretch this analogy well beyond its breaking point, I’d say Clinton didn’t do any of those things. Instead, the mugger had a group of millions of people who took her badge, her gun, her shoelaces, put her in the hospital where she was incapacitated, and then those people turned to the mugger, beat themselves up, and threw their money at the mugger and while half of the may claim to be victims, the others were more than happy to be beaten and mugged by the reprehensible mugger. This joke is on, and told by, the American people who voted for Trump. I’d find the whole it’s Clinton’s fault bullshit more believable if it came from someone who was adament that Hillary was unelectable BEFORE the election results came in instead of by posters pretending that they knew all along. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/144 "2016-11-10T14:01:32Z")
Losing an election to Donald Trump is like getting beaten up by Stephen Hawkings. “No fair - he called me names and ran over my foot!” kind of misses the point. Regards, shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/145 "2016-11-10T14:12:34Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’d find the whole it’s Clinton’s fault bullshit more believable if it came from someone who was adament that Hillary was unelectable BEFORE the election results came in instead of by posters pretending that they knew all along. Excellent point. IIRC many on this MB asserted that Clinton was virtually unbeatable by any Republican candidate. FTR, I myself thought Clinton had a slight edge over a generic Republican candidate, and was virtually a lock against Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/146 "2016-11-10T14:17:55Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > … **But** she sucked at _being the candidate._ And you have to succeed at that to become the President. > > … > In 2008 I was thinking “oh well, _someone else_ will be the first woman president in 8 or 12 or 20 years” …but oh, no, she was not leaving it at that… I know it takes a preposterous sense of self-worth and of the “call of history” to even try running for president seriously, but for fuck’s sake, telling yourself it is your destiny to be the first woman president does not make it be so. … Yes it seems that if there is one solid and not deniable criticism of her, it is indeed the blindness and the false sense of a destiny although if she had been able to listen to criticism she should have known that she was not the vehicle and that her skills and her role was to play an emminence grise in the future to support some charismatic candidate. > [@Memnon](#): > > … Ultimately, it all came down to charisma, as it always does and as it always will. It seems from reading this article, [It Appears As Though Hillary Clinton Was Ultimately Done In By Low Democratic Voter Turnout](http://uproxx.com/news/hillary-clinton-democratic-voter-turnout/), which is showing the American voting data that you have the confirmation it was indeed the collapse in the enthusiasm and the support of Mrs Clinton’s own party and not an explosion of the support to Trump > [@](#): > > Last night and this morning many seemed to think that the reason Trump won was because angry white voters turned out in large numbers to vote for him. But with nearly all the votes now tallied it appears as though that’s just not the case. In fact, Trump garnered fewer overall votes nationwide than John McCain and Mitt Romney, the past two losing GOP nominees, did in 2008 and 2012. As of this writing, with almost all votes counted, Trump has tallied 59,611,678 votes; Romney pulled in 60,933,504 in 2012, and McCain 59,948,323 in 2008. > > By comparison, Hillary’s 59,814,018 votes (which won her the popular vote, but not the Electoral College vote) is considerably less than the 69,498,516 Obama got in 2008, and the 65,915,795 he received in 2012. She was particularly hurt by low turnout in crucial swing states. also > [@](#): > > Further, **[Vox](http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/9/13573904/voter-turnout-2016-donald-trump)** notes that “Clinton garnered 129,000 fewer votes in heavily Democratic Detroit than Obama did four years ago — and lost the state by around 61,000 total votes” and that she “got 95,000 fewer votes in heavily Democratic Milwaukee than Obama did — and lost the state by 73,000 total votes.” > > Additionally, core Democratic voting groups likes blacks and Hispanics didn’t vote along party lines for Clinton as many assumed they would. As Pew Research notes, “Clinton held an 80-point advantage among blacks (88% to 8%) compared with Obama’s 87-point edge four years ago (93% to 6%). In 2008, Obama had a 91-point advantage among blacks.” > > **So while the theory that Trump won because of angry white people turning out in droves for him may be popular, the truth behind Clinton’s defeat appears to lie in the fact that voters were just not passionate enough about her to get out and actually vote for her, and the ones who did weren’t as loyal to the party as they were for Obama.** > > One of the big knocks against Clinton in the Democratic primary was that, in addition to not being particularly charismatic and exciting, the emphasis added. It is then in this data and the details showing in this article the clear failure of her as the candidate, it is indeed her failure, it is not the huge outpouring and increase for the Trump, but the discouragement and the failure of the inspiration role. (and even here the data there says that even on the republican side there was great discouragement, it suggests that a figure other than Mrs Clinton could have attracted in an anti trump vote). I think these numbers say clearly, it is the personal failure despite being the well financed and the better organized. It is the failure of the mechanistic technocratic view that forgets the human character motivation and the role of the human charisma… or so I see if from overseas looking at these American voting numbers. I am angry to see this, as it seems to me this person’s blindness and lack of charisma has made the world more dangerous by being the person who opened needlessly the door to this Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/147 "2016-11-10T14:23:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Losing an election to Donald Trump is like getting beaten up by Stephen Hawkings. “No fair - he called me names and ran over my foot!” kind of misses the point. > > Regards, > shodan Funny. You know I am sorry I called you once an ideological robot, you are not. I want to return to that to say I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/148 "2016-11-10T14:24:14Z")
For some reason, OP’s posts no longer appear for me but, guessing what his gripe is, and assuming he’s one of the right-wing snowflakes who figured out a Trump Presidency was NOT a good idea … Shouldn’t most of the blame go to the _ **Republicans** _, both in the leadership and the rank-and-file, who supported the Short-fingered Orange-skinned demagogue? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/149 "2016-11-10T14:29:47Z")
From the OP’s point of view, perhaps. But not from ours. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/150 "2016-11-10T14:31:17Z")
IMO, the Dems need to do a couple of things. 1. Stop listening to the damned hand-wringing Tone Police. Back in the day, the Lawful Good alignment in D&D was referred to as Lawful Stupid, because some people insisted that characters with the LG alignment had to be so pure and good that it actually required them to be stupendously stupid and disconnected from reality. The Dems won’t mount spirited defenses or outright assaults on issues because there’s always that crowd of passive-aggressive tone police wringing their hands loudly and publicly about how they can’t support the Dems if they act like that. FUCK THOSE PEOPLE. 2. Likewise, many of those same people are the overly PC types. Burke Breathed (Opus/Bloom County) coined the word “Offensensitivity” back in the 1980’s for those people who try to control every situation by being the most easily offended person in the room. There’s being a good person, and there’s being that fucking passive-aggressive tone police (again) by insisting that anyone ever being offended by anything is a major issue that needs to be addressed and the offenders both shamed and banished. This is a HUGE issue with the public and the reason the Republicans got a lot of support. There’s doing good and working to make things better, then there’s self-superior ‘My offense allows me to dictate to you’. We need less of the latter. 3. MESSAGING. The Dems have long been absolutely horrible on messaging. They suck at trying to do national campaigns to make a point, or change the narrative. 4. Generational Change. Clinton, Pelosi, Reid are all in their 70’s. Even Elizabeth Warren is in her 70’s. We need new, younger leadership. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/151 "2016-11-10T14:34:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I think we might have seen the last of the Bushes, though. 🙂 Don’t be so sure… George P is the Texas Land Commissioner, and was the Texas GOP’s “Victory Chairman” who was charged with: > [@](#): > > As Chair, Commissioner Bush is committed to leading the Republican team into the election this fall and raising the funds to finance an extensive and comprehensive political operation that will identify, register, and turn out Republican voters in the coming months of this election year. Plus he’s young, Hispanic, the nephew of George W. and the grandson of George H.W… I think we’ll see him end up making a run for governor or senate at the very least, if not President in another 3-4 terms. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/152 "2016-11-10T14:36:09Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > My Texan born, racist brother-in-law told me that he quit the Republican party because it changed. Thank god for that. You took the Black-hating, white trash and gave them a good home. > > Don’t blame Hillary. It’s your party which doesn’t care about facts and is ready to trash America. > > Go to hell. Let me add: Have you no fucking decency, you twisted piece of slime? What percent of Democrats crossed over and voted for your turd? What percent of Pubs actually didn’t vote for your monster? Something like 70% of Repulsive voters in the South believe that there is widespread voter fraud by Democrats, despite zero evidence to the contrary. Why? Because your racist leaders feed the worst fears of your slimy base. This didn’t happen in a vacuum. Angry white men are angry and your leadership fuels the fire for votes. It’s not Hillary or the Democratic Party who has corrupted the heart of the Republic, it is the Republicans. Then with your typical bullshit duplicity, you try to lay blame on one of ours. If you had the tiniest shred of integrity you should scurry back into your hole and hide in shame for your party. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/153 "2016-11-10T14:44:42Z")
Well, I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/154 "2016-11-10T14:47:36Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Even Elizabeth Warren is in her 70’s. Nitpick: Ms. Warren turned 67 years old just a few months ago; she’s barely middle-aged! I know because she was born just a few months before me. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/155 "2016-11-10T14:50:28Z")
A graphic link to the numbers of the voting [which is a tweeted graphic showing it was a Clinton collapse, not a big vote to the Republican candidate, the contrary as the quoted numbers said, he did worse than the Republican candidates of 2008 and 2012.](http://dr35ey0x3otoq.cloudfront.net/uploads/default/original/3X/8/8/880553df9a2d08301375064b2708fecb7950f614.png) in some ways this makes me feel better about the Americans, it was a collapse in disgust, which can be understood. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/156 "2016-11-10T14:55:37Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Well, my numbers may be complete bullshit. If so, I apologize–I haven’t had any goddamned sleep. > > Supposedly, [turnout was up](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/11/08/election-2016-turnout-records-trump-clinton/93498784/), which doesn’t seem to add up. Maybe there are more outstanding votes (for either or both candidates) than I’m thinking? > > The basic point of this thread–that Hilary Clinton is a lousy candidate who couldn’t even beat _Donald fucking Trump_–still stands. It’s increasingly looking like I was right the first time, goddamit. From [that article](http://uproxx.com/news/hillary-clinton-democratic-voter-turnout/) **Ramira** first linked to back in post #146: > [@](#): > > Going into election day, many thought that 2016 would shatter voter turnout records, and early exit polls on Tuesday supported that belief. But in the end the 2016 election looks like it will have produced the lowest voter turnout in modern American history when it comes to percentage of the voting age population that actually voted. Current data shows that only 48.62% of Americans of eligible voting age actually got out to vote yesterday. And _ **of course** _ the minority of Americans who actually voted for our pathologically thin-skinned narcissistic lying pussy-grabbing race-baiting demagogic _President-elect_ deserve the primary blame. But I’m also goddamned angry at all the Democrats and progressives who apparently couldn’t be bothered to vote against the pathologically thin-skinned narcissistic lying pussy-grabbing race-baiting demagogic person the Republican Party had nominated (for which–by all means–they may rot in hell), and I’m angry at the candidate whose fucking _ **job** _ it was to get out the damned vote and get her people to actually show up on election day, and I’m angry at the Democratic Party establishment for kind of railroading in a candidate who couldn’t even motivate people to get out and vote against _Donald Trump_, the candidate who ultimately couldn’t hack it enough to spare us from _President-elect Donald Trump_. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/157 "2016-11-10T15:07:31Z")
It is for this reason that the lesson for a political party is that the charisma and the campaigning skill of the candidate is important. I have the impression the Clinton campaign thought that the technocratic machinery and the management consultancy approach would be sufficient. but it was said here on this board many times even by those who supported Mrs Clinton that she was not a good campaigner, she did not have the charisma of Barack Obama… sadly she did not understand the importance of this and thought the mechanics and the databases were why she lost in 2008 it seems. so it seems you should take heart, to oppose Trump, you need a charismatic candidate like an Obama. The numbers do not say he was successful, Trump, they show it was her who was a failure. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/158 "2016-11-10T15:08:59Z")
Surely, but there are factors in both sides, **septimus**. In the nomination process, the GOP failed to offer their voters a proper vessel for their desire to upset the system, instead attempting to foist a set of establishment figures on the one end and rigid ideologues on the other. The voters rejected the Jebs and Christies as more of the same and though Cruz did better, he was still the “miserable SOB” described by Boehner and could not close. They wanted something different and Trump was something different. Having designed the system so that whoever took an early lead could run the board, in the hope it would be a Bush/Christie type or a respectable conservative like Ryan, the RNC was helpless to stop it. In the general, too many of the GOP base and leadership became cornered by how to possibly oppose the nominee after 20 years of making HRC the antichrist. They could not get over it, and the leadership was terrified of being primaried from the Trump side in 2018 just like the moderates were purged by the TPers over the past 8 years. I must also say, Clinton and her campaign and the Ds in general also dropped the ball by allowing it to become “but, he’s an asshole!!” rather than bringing something that would motivate people to vote FOR her rather than against him. Newsflash: YOOGE segments of the population don’t care if the chief is an awful person. They should have known that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/159 "2016-11-10T15:39:57Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Funny. > > You know I am sorry I called you once an ideological robot, you are not. I want to return to that to say I was wrong. Thank you very much for this. It wasn’t strictly necessary - this is just politics, and it’s just the Pit, so (hopefully) nobody takes it too seriously, but thank you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189/160 "2016-11-10T17:30:34Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > It’s increasingly looking like I was right the first time, goddamit. From [that article](http://uproxx.com/news/hillary-clinton-democratic-voter-turnout/) **Ramira** first linked to back in post #146: > > And _ **of course** _ the minority of Americans who actually voted for our pathologically thin-skinned narcissistic lying pussy-grabbing race-baiting demagogic _President-elect_ deserve the primary blame. But I’m also goddamned angry at all the Democrats and progressives who apparently couldn’t be bothered to vote against the pathologically thin-skinned narcissistic lying pussy-grabbing race-baiting demagogic person the Republican Party had nominated (for which–by all means–they may rot in hell), and I’m angry at the candidate whose fucking _ **job** _ it was to get out the damned vote and get her people to actually show up on election day, and I’m angry at the Democratic Party establishment for kind of railroading in a candidate who couldn’t even motivate people to get out and vote against _Donald Trump_, the candidate who ultimately couldn’t hack it enough to spare us from _President-elect Donald Trump_. > > Jesus. I voted. I got up early and was at the polls by umm 7;00, 7:15. I voted for HRC. So I am blameless. Want to KNOW what type supported Trump??? InfoWars, Breitbart and **STORMFRONT**. The fucking Nazis. Real, honest to god NAZIs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hillary-clinton/771189.md?page=9)