# I Pit Historians who cannot LEARN from history **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 14, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850 "2004-08-14T17:45:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/1 "2004-08-14T17:45:36Z")
ARGH! People can tell in our house when someone is watching what purports to be an educational channel Rome: Power and Glory. I pit thee, Shelly Halley, purportedly an expert in history. “Cleopatra was female, beautiful and african, and therefore embodied everything threatening to Rome” [paraphrase] What part of Ptolomain Dynasty means “African”? What part of non-photographic art/nonrealistic art means we know exactly what she looks like? I will grant that in general Romans were wary about powerful females, despite many powerful women _behind_ thrones, they weren’t really allowed to be _on_ the throne. The Ptolemaic Dynasty were descendants of an immediate nature of a general named Ptolemy who invaded in Alexander’s army. He was a ‘greekling’ fergoshsakes, NOT african. [OK, fine, Macedonian. harumph] [Cleopatra:enduring icon](http://www.artic.edu/webspaces/fnews/2001-december/decfeatures1.html) Even comes out and says that we do NOT know…and it only mentions a grandmother who is unknown - a concubine NOT specifying that she was greekling or african or egyptian. Dont know about anybody else, but to me 1 quarter possible negroid/african does not negroid/african make. For all anybody knows, that 1 quarter could have been semetic, african, egyptian or greekling… Can we get back to what we _do_ know about her? We DO know she was 3 quarters greekling. What part of WE DONT KNOW cant people understand? How about stickiing tio what we do know, and come out and admit what we dont know? ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/2 "2004-08-14T18:01:05Z")
Oh man, I though you were going to come in here spreading that “Those who don’t learn from the past are doomed to repeat it” half-truth. Whew. Hear, hear. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/3 "2004-08-14T18:03:24Z")
Well, she was African in the sense that she was born in Africa and a ruler of an African country. (And the Romans had a different concept of “Africa” than we do) ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/4 "2004-08-14T18:07:56Z")
How on Earth does being “beautiful, female, and African” embody everything threatening to Rome? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/5 "2004-08-14T18:12:49Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > What part of non-photographic art/nonrealistic art means we know exactly what she looks like? Actually, we have a pretty good idea about what she looked like: > **[Greek, Latin, & Ancient Mediterranean Studies](https://www.beloit.edu/academics/greek-latin-ancient-mediterranean/)** > > Engage the Past. Navigate the Present. Shape the Future. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/6 "2004-08-14T18:18:24Z")
I just the misfortune of seeing a show called [Pagans](http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/P/pagans/index.html) while I was in the UK. A supposed “professor of Anthropology” told us that trees were sacred to pagans. All of them. Everywhere. At all times. No exceptions. And this explains why we like going for a walk in the countryside. He then found the remains of a wooden temple which had burned down. He knew _without the slightest doubt_ that this was proff of a sacrifice. There was no possibilty that it was struck by lightning, destroyed by arson, burned down by a rival village or anything else. This guy _knew_. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/7 "2004-08-14T18:22:28Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > How on Earth does being “beautiful, female, and African” embody everything threatening to Rome? Because it means she’d seduce Romans (like Antony) with her decadent foreign ways? That’s my guess. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/8 "2004-08-14T19:04:31Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Because it means she’d seduce Romans (like Antony) with her decadent foreign ways? That’s my guess. Hmmm, there is a possibility. I would think that ungovernable Visigoths with bad-attitudes and pitch forks would be a greater threat. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/9 "2004-08-14T19:15:37Z")
From Dio Cassius > [@](#): > > For she had enslaved him so absolutely that she persuaded him to act as gymnasiarch to the Alexandrians; and she was called “queen” and “mistress” by him, had Roman soldiers in her bodyguard, and all of these inscribed her name upon their shields. She used to frequent the market-place with him, joined him in the management of festivals and in the hearing of lawsuits, and rode with him even in the cities, or else was carried in a chair while Antony accompanied her on foot along with her eunuchs. He also termed his headquarters “the palace,” sometimes wore an oriental dagger at his belt, dressed in a manner not in accordance with the customs of his native land, and let himself be seen even in public upon a gilded couch or a chair of that kind. He posed with her for portrait paintings and statues, he representing Osiris or Dionysus and she Selene or Isis. This more than all else made him seem to have been bewitched by her through some enchantment. For she so charmed and enthralled not only him but also the rest who had any influence with him that she conceived the hope of ruling even the Romans; and whenever she used an oath her strongest phrase in swearing was by her purpose to dispense justice on the Capitol. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/10 "2004-08-14T19:17:21Z")
She, in that passage, being Cleopatra, and he being Antony, and my coding is messed up… ---
**Author:** ![Silocke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Silocke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silocke)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/11 "2004-08-14T23:35:00Z")
By the way, who did Cleo fancy more? Ceasar or Anthony? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/12 "2004-08-14T23:58:56Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Actually, we have a pretty good idea about what she looked like: > > [Greek, Latin, & Ancient Mediterranean Studies • Beloit College](http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/main/courses/history222/julius/friends_comp.html) That is one impressive honker. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/13 "2004-08-15T00:21:52Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Actually, we have a pretty good idea about what she looked like: > > [Greek, Latin, & Ancient Mediterranean Studies • Beloit College](http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/main/courses/history222/julius/friends_comp.html) And that would be **uggggllyyyy…** ---
**Author:** ![Telperien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Telperien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperien)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/14 "2004-08-15T00:24:20Z")
Well, I wouldn’t say she was ugly, just that she’s not gorgeous. I kind of like the big nose. She must have been really charismatic, though, and/or really good in bed. ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/15 "2004-08-15T01:02:15Z")
I agree with Hari (can I call you Hari? Love that book btw) she’s not ugly. She may not be gorgeous but I betcha if we saw her in all her glory she’d look pretty darn good. Statues and coins don’t give you the whole picture… like personality. And heck, she could be ugly and have absolutely no personality whatsoever… she’d still be attractive because she had _power_. ---
**Author:** ![Telperien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Telperien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperien)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/16 "2004-08-15T01:40:53Z")
Go ahead, call me Hari. Sounds good to me. Mind you, after I looked at those coins, I had an urge to go check out my own nose. I’m developing a complex about it, just for fun. Mine doesn’t compare to Cleo’s, though. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/17 "2004-08-15T03:08:32Z")
> [@Harimad-sol](#): > > Well, I wouldn’t say she was ugly, just that she’s not gorgeous. I kind of like the big nose. She must have been really charismatic, though, and/or really good in bed. Remember that the nose was probably worse in real life. Sculptors had a habit of toning down, sometimes severely, the negative aspects of their patron’s physical appearance for things - especially things that were to be for public consumption. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/18 "2004-08-15T03:24:29Z")
I know Shelly Halley. I like her. I don’t think she’d make such a dumb statement. I think she meant, as suggested by others here, that she really meant “foreign and able to seduce powerful Romans”, not Black. The Romans really were uncomforatble with the idea of their leaders being led around by their balls by a Greco-Egyptian. Of course, that may just be my school pride speaking (she’s a Latin prof at my alma mater). ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/19 "2004-08-15T17:33:56Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > I know Shelly Halley. I like her. I don’t think she’d make such a dumb statement. > > I think she meant, as suggested by others here, that she really meant “foreign and able to seduce powerful Romans”, not Black. The Romans really were uncomforatble with the idea of their leaders being led around by their balls by a Greco-Egyptian. > > Of course, that may just be my school pride speaking (she’s a Latin prof at my alma mater). Watch the documentary, it will most likely be played again [and again, and again, and again…] And nothing to me makes me particularly willing to accept 90% of modern academics as able to do anything but teach their own narrow little subjects with tolerable competence. She was not there as a teacher of latin, she was there as an _expert_ on Cleopatra and the Romans. Personally, being able to read Suetonius in the original transcription is _nothing_ like actually comprehending the history being discussed. FWIW, I can read latin fairly competently \ and can claim only to be a synthesist. However, I read many different subjects because I have no vested need to keep my tenure so I can branch out and read about the keltoi migrations, the brithons, the goths, the huns and the mongolians as my whim takes me. Paul Buell may be the current expert on early mongolian/chinese cooking and veterinary medical practices, but he will be the first one to admit that he has not clue 1 about the eastern europeans other than as they came into contact with the mongolian armies. He doesnt have to read about them until he runs across them in his chinese documentation whereas I happen to have read up upon them as fun to check out a novel I was reading and wanted to find out more. I have not got a publisher breathing down my neck [though I think his book on veterinary practices of the mongols is about ready for publication, the house here finished up with the galley proofs a few weeks ago.] [And _our_ definition of african is _not_ the Roman definition of african. Scipio Africanus got his name because of the Punic Wars versus the Carthaginians, and nobody claims that the carthaginians were negroid sub-saharan africans…too many moderns use _our_ definitions of african when dealing with classical history, and that is the major bug up my ass.] ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850/20 "2004-08-15T18:19:26Z")
I think she was in love with Caesar, and glommed onto Antony to help her fight Octavius, who hated her. I don’t know if she loved Antony as much as Caesar. From what I understand, she was an intelligent, politically astute lady. She survived assasination attempts and managed to enthrall not one but two of the most powerful men in the ancient world. So, at the very least, she must have been incredibly charismatic. Maybe not being beautiful helped her…she was able to develop her other assets and not just rely on her looks. (Not that beautiful women can’t be smart and successful.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-historians-who-cannot-learn-from-history/259850.md?page=2)