# I Pit HOBBY LOBBY **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335 "2012-11-28T02:45:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1321 "2014-07-18T02:34:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Apparently not. Reaching out to touch their employees, another thing altogether. The sex lives and moral values of their employees is a matter which demands due diligence. Where their corporate money goes? Well, its only money, right? > > Any hint, from any quarter, that they asked their employees as to their feelings and preferences? Not that they have any legal standing, or anything, after all, they are…well, _employees_, aren’t they? Probably fly coach. > > Let us establish a realistic framework: there is no possible set of laws and court decisions that will establish a legal and social framework that will allow all religious convictions to be fully reflected. It can’t happen, it just isn’t possible. > > But we live together, or we die. To that end, we should muddle through, tolerance above all. To that end, government must be as secular and religiously neutral as humanly possible. But even that has to be supported by our behavior, by our mutual willingness to put up with each other. Requiring a conscious decision to do that, to go along, to get along. > > Don’t Be A Dick About Your Shit is my inelegant way to put it, I’m sure there are better, but in this case clarity is more important that artfulness. Hobby Lobby is being a dick about their shit. That they are adjudged to have every legal right to do so is nearly irrelevant in this context, they shouldn’t anyway. The Phelps crew has every legal right to do what they do, they still shouldn’t. > > Don’t be a dick about your shit. If that’s the rule, then why make the further rule that employers must cover contraception? Why doesn’t that get scuttled under the rubric? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1322 "2014-07-18T04:29:40Z")
Didn’t get a word of that, did you? Bounced off you like a Nerf ball off a musk ox. That’s OK, wasn’t really expecting you to unless I was posting from Lourdes… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1323 "2014-07-18T04:32:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “They scream oppression?” > > They filed suit to force the government to follow the RFRA’s requirements. They didn’t need to scream. And they were certainly entitled to the protection of the law. Yeah, Lobohan, don’t say “scream” when you know it’s not literally true. [It’s amazing to me that liberals scream loudly (as they should!) when the state tries to avoid teaching evolution, but some of them then seem blind to evolution’s obvious consequences.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13948738&postcount=36) [Go right ahead. Scream all you like at the Church for those choices. How dare they not punish abusers as I wish them to? How dare they not ordain women? How dare they oppose abortion?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12480713&postcount=58) [Look, surely you see that if you scream loudly about, say, NFL coaches sending videocam-armed spies to opponent’s practices because such action is wrong, and then defend the practice when your favorite NBA team does it, it’s relevant to ask if your real issue is with surreptitious taping of team practices.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12218808&postcount=41) [I am assuming, here, that I’m not talking to a bunch of idiots who will immediately scream, “OMG!!!11! He said rape and sex are the same thing and he must DIE!”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10945738&postcount=29) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1324 "2014-07-18T07:28:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, Lobohan, don’t say “scream” when you know it’s not literally true. > > [It’s amazing to me that liberals scream loudly (as they should!) when the state tries to avoid teaching evolution, but some of them then seem blind to evolution’s obvious consequences.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13948738&postcount=36) > > [Go right ahead. Scream all you like at the Church for those choices. How dare they not punish abusers as I wish them to? How dare they not ordain women? How dare they oppose abortion?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12480713&postcount=58) > > [Look, surely you see that if you scream loudly about, say, NFL coaches sending videocam-armed spies to opponent’s practices because such action is wrong, and then defend the practice when your favorite NBA team does it, it’s relevant to ask if your real issue is with surreptitious taping of team practices.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12218808&postcount=41) > > [I am assuming, here, that I’m not talking to a bunch of idiots who will immediately scream, “OMG!!!11! He said rape and sex are the same thing and he must DIE!”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10945738&postcount=29) I think we’re gonna have to get Canadian gay-married now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1325 "2014-07-18T07:44:20Z")
Don’t you _dare_ try to get away with wearing white! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1326 "2014-07-18T12:35:40Z")
At least they won’t need contraception. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1327 "2014-07-18T12:49:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Apparently not. Reaching out to touch their employees, another thing altogether. The sex lives and moral values of their employees is a matter which demands due diligence. Where their corporate money goes? Well, its only money, right? > > Any hint, from any quarter, that they asked their employees as to their feelings and preferences? Not that they have any legal standing, or anything, after all, they are…well, _employees_, aren’t they? Probably fly coach. > > Let us establish a realistic framework: there is no possible set of laws and court decisions that will establish a legal and social framework that will allow all religious convictions to be fully reflected. It can’t happen, it just isn’t possible. > > But we live together, or we die. To that end, we should muddle through, tolerance above all. To that end, government must be as secular and religiously neutral as humanly possible. But even that has to be supported by our behavior, by our mutual willingness to put up with each other. Requiring a conscious decision to do that, to go along, to get along. > > Don’t Be A Dick About Your Shit is my inelegant way to put it, I’m sure there are better, but in this case clarity is more important that artfulness. Hobby Lobby is being a dick about their shit. That they are adjudged to have every legal right to do so is nearly irrelevant in this context, they shouldn’t anyway. The Phelps crew has every legal right to do what they do, they still shouldn’t. > > Don’t be a dick about your shit. If only there were some way for Hobby Lobby to pay their employees more than is typical for similar work, and if only that extra pay were enough that those employees could afford to purchase the contraception they want. Nah, that wouldn’t do. And they damn well better give them a turkey at Thanksgiving, too!! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1328 "2014-07-18T14:05:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, Lobohan, don’t say “scream” when you know it’s not literally true. It’s not even figuratively true. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1329 "2014-07-18T14:33:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If only there were some way for Hobby Lobby to pay their employees more than is typical for similar work, and if only that extra pay were enough that those employees could afford to purchase the contraception they want. Nah, that wouldn’t do. And they damn well better give them a turkey at Thanksgiving, too!! You left out the part about how we lefty progressives are just a bunch of naive moonbats who don’t understand how the real world works. My personal favorite, actually, when it comes to empty sarcasm. Thing is, **John** , we \*do \*understand how the real world works. That’s why we want to change it. We could use your help, if you’ve nothing better to do. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1330 "2014-07-18T14:48:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not even figuratively true. Yeah, people who use verbs that aren’t literally or figuratively true should be _shot!_ Not literally or figuratively, of course. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1331 "2014-07-18T14:53:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But they say its “baby-killing”. How much “baby-killing” is permissible to retain one’s religious sincerity? How many forms of “baby-killing” do you find acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1332 "2014-07-18T15:01:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …Thing is, **John** , we \*do \*understand how the real world works. That’s why we want to change it. We could use your help, if you’ve nothing better to do. Then you should understand that the RFRA of 1993 is still law and HL is entitled to file suit against the government when the government tries to ignore existing law. It seems you would prefer that the courts legislate, when it’s in your favor. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1333 "2014-07-18T15:08:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …Would Hobby Lobby withdraw its objections to its employees using such forms of contraception so long as they did not use them “heavily”? Isn’t that a question you should be asking Hobby Lobby? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1334 "2014-07-18T15:20:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I didn’t go to court to insist that my standards must be respected by law. They did. > [@elucidator](#): > > …Don’t Be A Dick About Your Shit is my inelegant way to put it, I’m sure there are better, but in this case clarity is more important that artfulness. Hobby Lobby is being a dick about their shit. **That they are adjudged to have every legal right to do so is nearly irrelevant in this context** , they shouldn’t anyway. The Phelps crew has every legal right to do what they do, they still shouldn’t. > > Don’t be a dick about your shit. (post shortened and bold added) Since you are the one demanding that others live up to your standards and ignore existing law, maybe you could follow your own advice? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1335 "2014-07-18T15:21:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, people who use verbs that aren’t literally or figuratively true should be _shot!_ > > Not literally or figuratively, of course. Er… yes. My point was that it’s not fair to compare Hobby Lobby’s actions to screaming. They simply asked the court to enforce the RFRA’s guarantees of unfettered religious exercise against the government. There was nothing particularly strident or overblown about their approach. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1336 "2014-07-18T15:22:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened and bold added) > > Since you are the one demanding that others live up to your standards and ignore existing law, maybe you could follow your own advice? **elucidator’s Law** : Don’t be a dick about your shit. **elucidator’s Codicil** …thus leaving me free to be a dick about mine. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1337 "2014-07-18T15:44:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Er… yes. > > My point was that it’s not fair to compare Hobby Lobby’s actions to screaming. They simply asked the court to enforce the RFRA’s guarantees of unfettered religious exercise against the government. There was nothing particularly strident or overblown about their approach. _My_ point is that for a guy who likes to accuse others of hypocrisy, you sure seem fond of practicing it when it suits you. Oooh, irony. I’ll gladly assume you didn’t think Lobohan thought HL was literally screaming. I’ll gladly assume every time you have said people (liberals, mostly) were “screaming” about something they didn’t like, you didn’t think they were literally doing so, barring a specific case of that actually happening, as I’m sure it has at some protest or other. Anyway, I recognize that nitpicking on the use of a single word while ignoring the larger issue is not a useful tactic (though I’m sure I’ve done so in the past) so I’ll leave it back in your capable hands so you can resume analyzing what “heavy” means. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1338 "2014-07-18T15:45:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You left out the part about how we lefty progressives are just a bunch of naive moonbats who don’t understand how the real world works. Had I wanted to say that, I would have. So, no, I didn’t leave anything out-- you added something in. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1339 "2014-07-18T15:48:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Horseshit. In a way, you can still pay for your own contraception. No one is preventing you from obtaining your own contraception. If insurance is part of their salary then that is paying for their own contraception, they are not forced to use it for contraception if the choose not to.I personally wil not shop at Hobby Lobby and give the money to Planned parenthood so the woman can have only the children she desires. How many people that support Hobby Lobby are happy to pay for children on welfare? They seem to be the one’s who complain about taxes and care very little for the child once in this world. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335/1340 "2014-07-18T15:54:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > **elucidator’s Law** : Don’t be a dick about your shit. > > **elucidator’s Codicil** …thus leaving me free to be a dick about mine. That sums it up very nicely. Existing law means nothing. Hopey changey must be dictated by the courts. All must bow down before ACA/Obamacare. No one must challenge the dictates of the Obama Whitehouse or the Democrat Party. Sheeesh! :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-hobby-lobby/642335.md?page=68)