# I Pit idiots/hypocrites unconcerned about America's sex trafficking **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520 "2011-05-28T02:48:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/61 "2011-06-01T21:56:53Z")
> [@lexi](#): > > If her situation was as it appeared, you are not, but if she was not working of her own free will, and you did not have sex with her, but paid, you still provided a financial incentive for the pimp to keep her in bondage. So, again, how do I know for sure what her personal situation is? Neither she, nor the bar owner, are going to be truthful if they are engaging in sex slavery. ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/62 "2011-06-01T22:07:42Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > So, again, how do I know for sure what her personal situation is? Neither she, nor the bar owner, are going to be truthful if they are engaging in sex slavery. You don’t know, so you have to live with the possibility that you contributed to sexual slavery. Whether the possibility is 0.001% instead of 5% or 10% or 25% could be a comfort to you, or you could just not give a sh\*t. Either way - it is on your conscious now. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/63 "2011-06-02T01:29:58Z")
> [@lexi](#): > > You don’t know, so you have to live with the possibility that you contributed to sexual slavery. Whether the possibility is 0.001% instead of 5% or 10% or 25% could be a comfort to you, or you could just not give a sh\*t. Either way - it is on your conscious now. Great. So I’m a piece of shit based on something I can’t know, something someone else (the pimp) might have done? ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/64 "2011-06-02T01:44:22Z")
Maybe - if you don’t care - I would never hold anybodies past against them. I don’t know how it works in the Phillippines - and even here in Canada I couldn’t judge whether it was a circumstance where someone was being abused without many details, so honestly I don’t judge unless there is blatant disregard of the potential of abuse - but I will admit I have low regard of men who choose to use a woman instead of their own hand. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/65 "2011-06-02T01:48:42Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Great. So I’m a piece of shit based on something I can’t know, something someone else (the pimp) might have done? Save time, become Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/66 "2011-06-02T01:56:25Z")
> [@lexi](#): > > Maybe - if you don’t care - **I would never hold anybodies past against them**. I don’t know how it works in the Phillippines - and even here in Canada I couldn’t judge whether it was a circumstance where someone was being abused without many details, so honestly I don’t judge unless there is blatant disregard of the potential of abuse - but **I will admit I have low regard of men who choose to use a woman instead of their own hand**. Don’t the bolded portions contradict? ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/67 "2011-06-02T03:02:37Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > How is the John to know which hookers are the coerced ones? > > Some Johns won’t care if the hooker is exploited or not, some will. But the hooker who is exploited ain’t going to be upfront about it, right? > > On a seperate issue: How about strippers? Are they hookers without the happy ending? (i.e. desperate women with few marketable skills being taken advantage of by unscrupulous club owners.) There are “hobbyist” websites that provide an online community for hookers and johns. The guys can find out about “providers” in their area and read her reviews from other guys and find out her availabilty. And the girls can also rate the guys and use each other as references to stay as safe as possible. My work in the sex industry is limited to stripping, but I have known many women who very willingly sell their sexual services. The “happy hooker” thing might not be as common as people want to think, but there are plenty of women who do enjoy sex work. I’ve been involved in an online community for sex workers for several years and we have a couple hundred members who discuss their lives and work just like we discuss things here. They may be exceptions, but they do exist. And no, I would not characterize the strippers I have known as desperate, nor do I think they are being taken advantage of. Most strippers I’ve known are actually quite confident in themselves, and do not fit into any one mold or stripper stereotype. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the people I’ve known in this business. They are an interesting and bizarre bunch of women.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/68 "2011-06-02T08:03:22Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > That being said, this article is a sensationalist piece of shit. First of all, that fake photograph is tasteless. Trying to link prostitution to gangsta rap and video games is silly Vanity Fair and the SDMB are probably the only two places Nelly has ever been called “Gangsta” before. ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/69 "2011-06-02T16:10:23Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > There are “hobbyist” websites that provide an online community for hookers and johns. The guys can find out about “providers” in their area and read her reviews from other guys and find out her availabilty. And the girls can also rate the guys and use each other as references to stay as safe as possible. > > My work in the sex industry is limited to stripping, but I have known many women who very willingly sell their sexual services. The “happy hooker” thing might not be as common as people want to think, but there are plenty of women who do enjoy sex work. I’ve been involved in an online community for sex workers for several years and we have a couple hundred members who discuss their lives and work just like we discuss things here. They may be exceptions, but they do exist. > > And no, I would not characterize the strippers I have known as desperate, nor do I think they are being taken advantage of. Most strippers I’ve known are actually quite confident in themselves, and do not fit into any one mold or stripper stereotype. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the people I’ve known in this business. They are an interesting and bizarre bunch of women.🙂 Of strippers I have known, I’d say 70% of them have their lives together, and are not bound by painful pasts and addictions. Of prostitutes I have known, I’d say it is completely inverse - 30% of them are not messed up. ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/70 "2011-06-02T16:14:04Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Don’t the bolded portions contradict? I don’t think so. For example, if a man I knew took part in something which I found morally abhorrent, yet they regretted and had learned from that action, then his past should not matter. If a man did not regret or he reveled in a past which I found morally abhorrent, then I am judging them for something current - their current point of view of their past actions. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/71 "2011-06-02T16:24:22Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Vanity Fair and the SDMB are probably the only two places Nelly has ever been called “Gangsta” before. Hey, I was just referencing the article. Frankly, I don’t think many gangsta rappers were actually gangsters at all. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/72 "2011-06-02T16:34:54Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Originally Posted by SecretaryofEvil View Post > Many prostitution sting operations are little more than elaborate excuses to confiscate the cars of the johns they bust. > > Say what? Solicitation of prostitution is a relatively minor offense. It is usually punishable by a small fine and community service and or probation. However, in many American jurisdictions the police can confiscate a piece of property if it was used to commit a crime. For example, if you rob a bank using a pistol and a car that you legally own, the government can confiscate your pistol and car because you used them to commit a crime. People often pick up prostitutes with their cars. A john might end up with a fine of a couple hundred bucks, but the police get to seize his car. In many areas, the police have been accused of being more interested in confiscating the cars of people attempting to solicit prostitutes than of actually combating prostitution. I realize I sort of fucked up that quote. I wrote “Many prostitution sting operations are little more than elaborate excuses to confiscate the cars of the johns they bust.” and Mosier replied “Say what?” ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/73 "2011-06-02T16:40:06Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Hey, I was just referencing the article. Frankly, I don’t think many gangsta rappers were actually gangsters at all. Fair enough. It’s just one of my pet peeves, I think it shows some latent racism in the article… what exactly is “gangsta” at all about Nelly, other than that he is black and rhyming? :rolleyes: For what it’s worth too, I think Nelly is terrible. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/74 "2011-06-02T18:17:15Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Vanity Fair and the SDMB are probably the only two places Nelly has ever been called “Gangsta” before. > [@rogerbox](#): > > Fair enough. It’s just one of my pet peeves, I think it shows some latent racism in the article… what exactly is “gangsta” at all about Nelly, other than that he is black and rhyming? :rolleyes: > > For what it’s worth too, I think Nelly is terrible. For the record, I never said Nelly was gangsta. I wrote: “Trying to link prostitution to gangsta rap and video games is silly. I’m under the distinct impression that prostitution has existed a bit longer than either of those things.” The Vanity Fair Article claimed: “Dr. Sharon Cooper believes that the anti-intellectual, consumerist, hyper-violent, and super-eroticized content of movies (Hustle & Flow), reality TV (Cathouse), video games (Grand Theft Auto: Vice City), gangsta rap (Nelly’s “Tip Drill”), and cyber sites (Second Life: Jail Bait) has normalized sexual harm.” I’ve never heard the song mentioned in the article. I would not consider Nelly a gangsta rapper, and I’m not sure if it implies racism on behalf of the article so much as detachment from reality due to ignorance. I’m fairly confident in claiming that it is ridiculous to think that the GTA video games are causing an increase in sex slavery. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/75 "2011-06-02T18:19:00Z")
> [@lexi](#): > > I don’t think so. For example, if a man I knew took part in something which I found morally abhorrent, yet they regretted and had learned from that action, then his past should not matter. If a man did not regret or he reveled in a past which I found morally abhorrent, then I am judging them for something current - their current point of view of their past actions. What confused me is that you stated that you hold men who had used a prostitute (instead of their hand) in low regard. You did not state these other qualifiers. Question: Do you feel drug users are pieces of shit? (Drug gang violence in the U.S. and Mexico.) Do you feel that people who buy cheap athletic shoes or clothing to be pieces of shit? (Sweat shops in the U.S., and the Far East.) ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/76 "2011-06-02T19:18:05Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > For the record, I never said Nelly was gangsta. I wrote: > > “Trying to link prostitution to gangsta rap and video games is silly. I’m under the distinct impression that prostitution has existed a bit longer than either of those things.” Understood. > [@](#): > > I’ve never heard the song mentioned in the article. I would not consider Nelly a gangsta rapper, and I’m not sure if it implies racism on behalf of the article so much as detachment from reality due to ignorance. I’m fairly confident in claiming that it is ridiculous to think that the GTA video games are causing an increase in sex slavery. So they know that Nelly is a rapper and they have apparently SEEN the tip drill video since they wrote about it, so Vanity Fair is most likely aware that Nelly is black. A black rapper. From where do they get the leap that he’s “gangsta” other than their assumptions based on…? The article was poor all over but I just wanted to highlight another way it was idiotic that people might have missed. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/77 "2011-06-02T20:14:43Z")
It seems to me that the same forces that keep women in the throes of an abusive relationship with a boyfriend, husband or father is the same as that of the average prostitute. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/78 "2011-06-02T20:15:54Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Great. So I’m a piece of shit based on something I can’t know, something someone else (the pimp) might have done? I know this is a complex idea to handle, but if you don’t want to feel like a piece of shit based on not being able to know all the facts in a situation. . . _don’t engage in that situation._ You could just, ya know, not hire hookers. Cuts the risk to zero right there. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/79 "2011-06-02T20:19:02Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I know this is a complex idea to handle, but if you don’t want to feel like a piece of shit based on not being able to know all the facts in a situation. . . _don’t engage in that situation._ You could just, ya know, not hire hookers. Cuts the risk to zero right there. I know now. Not then. Also: I did “x” with a prostitute. By **lexi** ’s definition, if the prostitute was willing to do “x” with me for money (with no coersion), then I’m ok (if maybe pathetic). But if a third party does something different, then I’m a shit. Something I can’t know or control. It seems to me that I’m assumed to be a shit (“guilty”) unless proven otherwise. It seems backwards to me. ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520/80 "2011-06-04T19:14:51Z")
The _Vanity Fair_ article in question was written by a fashion editor whose only statistics come straight from extremely partisan sources who repeat numbers that have been shown to have been invented up out of thin air. The only mention of the dispute over those numbers was treated in a flippant, highly disrespectful and deceitful way – claiming that anyone disputing the numbers should be treated as enemies. Academics, journalists, government workers and advocates for sex workers and immigrants who have investigated these claims of sex slavery in America all say they are vastly inflated and unrepresentative of the very real tragedies of trafficking that are happening. Most arrests for situations that meet the definition of human trafficking are forced labor of illegal immigrants: rich people taking away the passports of their servants and treating them like slaves, or groups of immigrants locked in sweat shops making clothes or working farms for organized crime. Even if you turn your brain off and take all the claims of the anti-prostitution groups as accurate, the writer picked perhaps the one case that was prosecuted in the last ten years that could be presented in a way that fits the narrative of white slavery that these people are obsessed with. No one denies that there are some cases like this, and any time it does actually happen it is criminal and tragic. However, that’s no excuse for focusing solely on the rare cases as if they were the most common and inventing up scary sounding statistics to get people who don’t care about exploited immigrants to fund task forces to try to save millions of white, underage sex slaves who certainly would never dream of engaging in such acts if it weren’t for colored pimps locking them up and abusing them. The stereotypes being presented here by _Vanity Fair_ and the anti-sex trafficking activists are offensive on multiple levels. The same people who pass around the bogus claims about high rates of domestic abuse during the Super Bowl improved upon the story to fit their new agenda. Now we’re supposed to believe that thousands of semi-trucks with chained teenage girls stacked like cases of beer from top to bottom are shipped off to the stadium each year. Sorry, but no sane person could possibly believe the claims that 100,000-300,000 underage prostitutes were being shipped into town for the Super Bowl against their will without real evidence. And these people don’t have evidence. When asked to back up their claims they just insist they are right and say the only way they could demonstrate it is to get more money and pass more laws. I’m sorry, but we already have plenty of state and federal laws that cover kidnapping, abuse, prostitution, transporting minors over state lines and so forth. If we do not have the arrests to support these numbers then law enforcement is either incompetent to an amazing degree or the numbers are simply wrong. Obviously there are cases of women who are abused and forced to do things they wouldn’t otherwise do. But to actually help them we need to focus on the complicated real world of what actually happens, and the vast majority of them are not human trafficking victims. We need a sane response to the reality of prostitution that focuses more on the pimps and the johns than the prostitutes and that offers practical ways for all of them to choose different paths. That means support systems, counseling, economic opportunities and so forth. Remember the Satanic panic of the '80s and '90s with cults supposedly kidnapping, raping and eating the bodies of millions of children abducted off the street? Well, that was exposed as nonsense, so the same people who used to promote that fear-mongering just switched to fears about wide scale institutionalized sex abuse – which actually just resurrects the white slavery panic from a century ago. You’d think we as a society would learn from history, but, no, we just keep repeating the same old hysterias over and over again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-idiots-hypocrites-unconcerned-about-americas-sex-trafficking/583520.md?page=5)