# I Pit ILMVI for Complaining Incessantly About Acronyms **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2021, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142 "2021-05-29T01:49:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/81 "2021-05-29T19:02:49Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > maybe we can all learn to be more thoughtful with our use of acronyms on the one hand, and not so snarky in asking for clarification about acronyms on the other. I’ll gladly sign on to this. Sounds like a good faith idea. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/82 "2021-05-29T19:04:48Z")
So now let’s all hold hands together and sing KBY. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/83 "2021-05-29T19:26:53Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I wish I could be like some folks here who are so smoothly considerate they make a put-down sound like the nicest compliment. I’m not one of those people. > > I’d love to write like that but I get way too carried away with my feelings, get tunnel-vision, and thrust inelegantly but directly at my target. Mea culpa. Excluded middle. There is a third option: just simply ask. “I don’t know what XYZ means” is usually going to be enough, no thrusting required. Or are you saying your feelings are so out of control that you can’t do that? Having said that, sometimes I get angry at people who assume everyone everywhere knows everything about what they’re talking about, including acronyms. So I understand being angry at things like that. I don’t understand very well not being able to control the anger, in order to get better results. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/84 "2021-05-29T19:58:20Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So now let’s all hold hands together and sing KBY. I can sign on to that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/85 "2021-05-29T22:18:30Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > > > UNICEF > > I actually had to Google UNICEF. And it took me longer (10 seconds, vice 5) to figure out than BVR. That’s what using a “widely known” acronym can get you, if you think you’re the arbiter of what is or isn’t widely known, entitled to sark openly on those who don’t live up to your standards > > 😐 It sounds like the thread has reached a consensus, so I’ll throw in this hijack: I don’t think _UNICEF_ is a good example. It functions more as a name than an initialism - we pronounce it “Yew-nuh-seff” rather than “U-N-I-C-E-F”. I suspect more people have heard of it and know that it’s a children’s aid agency, than know what it stands for (_United Nations International Children’s Emergency Fund_, I think but can’t be arsed to Google). I certainly didn’t, back when I was a kid and our teachers would give us little UNICEF donation boxes to take trick-or-treating on Hallowe’en (which is the organization’s primary association for Americans of my generation, I bet.) ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/86 "2021-05-30T00:26:09Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Whenever I encounter this issue of unexplained acronyms, it screams American centric, to me. > > Americans tend to assume if it’s in common use in America, the rest of the world should just bloody catch up! > > It’s just poor form really. International publications like The Economist stick to a protocol wherein it’s first usage is spelled out, after that free use of acronym. > > How hard is that to understand? Or use? Seems easy enough to me. I agree. That was the hard and fast rule when I was a newspaper editor: Try not to use acronyms, unless spelling it out would be more jarring (like SCUBA). And if using one, EXPLAIN IT THE FIRST TIME YOU USE IT. The editor would yell if you broke this rule. About 50% of the time I just exit the thread, especially if it’s in the OP. Screw-in, if they wanted a conversation they should have been clear. > It comes off like someone using industry specific jargon, just so they’ll sound/feel clever when asked to clarify. Ugh! Now, I have a friend who uses acronyms to make himself feel smarter than anyone else at the table. For years, I just felt stupid, because I didn’t know what _S.P.E.B.S.Q.A._ meant, or some other term… that he’d purposely interject just as he’d change the subject, so no one could really call him on it, or even ask. After an entire evening of this (he was part of the Bakelite Street Irregulars, a bar-hopping gang of dads), I would feel so inadequate. But luckily, he did it to me so often that the others noticed. One took me aside and said “Hey, you’re smart, even if you don’t get half of what he says… Chucko and Raff complained too, and if you watch them, they’ll roll their eyes after the fact.” So yeah, I feel stupid when people use acronyms without caring whether others understand. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/87 "2021-05-30T00:38:33Z")
I’ll keep saying “I” a lot in this thread, more than I’m really comfortable with. My point here is not that I’m any sort of arbiter of Doing It Right. Rather that I’m explaining here the rationale I use when posting on the assumption that I’m pretty typical and many other prolific posters often have similar thoughts as they’re posting. I’ll start by pointing out that for many situations, if you (any you) don’t know the acronym, knowing what it decodes to isn’t much more informative. That’s not much better than being told that zoo critter over in that pen is a Lesser Crested Whatchamacallit. Now you know the name, but in no sense do you know the critter or anything more about it than you did 5 minutes ago. It just _feels_ like you’ve learned something useful. What’s really needed for folks who don’t really have the background to participate in the thread, is first the acronym expanded to words, then a footnote with a paragraph to explain whatever it is to newbies to this topic. Or a cite to a decent wiki article. etc. Now we’ve actually raised our random reader to the point where they can get value from reading our words. And not before. As somebody who posts a metric shitload here, I’m mostly _not_ writing for those lurking masses. Nor always to educate the uninformed but curious. In many cases I’m seeking a conversation with my peers and near peers in topic X expertise, whether that’s cars or DIY plumbing or computer programming or 300 level undergrad math. I’m seeking responses from people who will be just as familiar with the terminology as I am, and especially seeking conversation with the folks who know just enough more than I that I can learn without myself being buffaloed by stuff beyond my ken. For that conversation, expanding acronyms is frankly insulting my intended audience. There may be a lot of other people who choose to read the thread for whatever reason makes sense to them. But I _don’t_ care about them; they’re not the audience I’m sharing this space with. In other cases I’m genuinely writing to inform the curious layman. In that case I _do_ care about them and their reading experience. They _are_ my audience, not a distraction from my audience. And so where possible I don’t use acronyms at all, nor jargon if there’s a decent way to work around it and stick to higher level arm-waving and plain language explanations. At the risk of being misunderstood (or nitpicked) by fellow experts. So … As pointed out by several folks upthread, in many areas of expertise, acronyms cease to even be thought of as acronyms; they’re simply short funny-to-pronounce words that stand for everyday concepts. How many people who use DVDs know what the “V” really stands for? Hint: it is _not_ “video” Also as pointed out by many folks, the US-centrism here is thick. How many people use 2-letter US state postal codes without thinking? e.g. “I live in FL”. That shit is baffling to the 20-25% of non-US members we have. And we (certainly I) pull that shit all the time. In a thread about USPS operations (see what I did there?) that may be just fine; anyone with relevant knowledge and interest knows what all those are. In a thread about climate near where you live, using US postal abbreviations is totally insensitive to your actual audience. Coming from the other end of the telescope … It’s a social error for a reader to enter a thread where experts are happily jargoning back and forth and angrily announce “Hey, I demand a backgrounder for the laymen out here.” Instead, try doing some wiki homework first then ask nicely for clarification on some remaining point of confusion and see how much better that goes. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/88 "2021-05-30T00:44:44Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > In other cases I’m genuinely writing to inform the curious layman. But you’ve _never_ told us what QNH stands for… ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/89 "2021-05-30T00:50:10Z")
> In the spirit of reconciliation, I am going to unignore @I_Love_Me_Vol.I, and maybe we can all learn to be more thoughtful with our use of acronyms on the one hand, and not so snarky in asking for clarification about acronyms on the other. Just quoting, because I wanted to RTSA! (Read That Shit Again) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/90 "2021-05-30T01:10:01Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > In other cases I’m genuinely writing to inform the curious layman. > > But you’ve _never_ told us what QNH stands for… Indeed I have not. But I’ve also never used the term unexplained either. Thereby cleverly skirting the need to explain what it is. Call it old age and treachery. It’s a winning tactic once you master it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/91 "2021-05-30T01:20:59Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It’s just poor form really. International publications like The Economist stick to a protocol wherein it’s first usage is spelled out, after that free use of acronym. > > How hard is that to understand? Or use? Seems easy enough to me. > > About 50% of the time I just exit the thread, especially if it’s in the OP. Screw-in, if they wanted a conversation they should have been clear. > > It comes off like someone using industry specific jargon, just so they’ll sound/feel clever when asked to clarify. Ugh! Is there some sort of corollary to muphry’s law that when complaining about people not explaining acronyms, the post will contain at least one undefined acronym? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/92 "2021-05-30T01:22:03Z")
> [@digs](#): > > > [@elbows](#): > > > > Whenever I encounter this issue of unexplained acronyms, it screams American centric, to me. > > > > Americans tend to assume if it’s in common use in America, the rest of the world should just bloody catch up! > > > > It’s just poor form really. International publications like The Economist stick to a protocol wherein it’s first usage is spelled out, after that free use of acronym. > > > > How hard is that to understand? Or use? Seems easy enough to me. > > I agree. That was the hard and fast rule when I was a newspaper editor: Try not to use acronyms, unless spelling it out would be more jarring (like SCUBA). And if using one, EXPLAIN IT THE FIRST TIME YOU USE IT. The editor would yell if you broke this rule. > > About 50% of the time I just exit the thread, especially if it’s in the OP. Screw-in, if they wanted a conversation they should have been clear. > > > It comes off like someone using industry specific jargon, just so they’ll sound/feel clever when asked to clarify. Ugh! > > Now, I have a friend who uses acronyms to make himself feel smarter than anyone else at the table. For years, I just felt stupid, because I didn’t know what _S.P.E.B.S.Q.A._ meant, or some other term… that he’d purposely interject just as he’d change the subject, so no one could really call him on it, or even ask. > > After an entire evening of this (he was part of the Bakelite Street Irregulars, a bar-hopping gang of dads), I would feel so inadequate. > > But luckily, he did it to me so often that the others noticed. One took me aside and said “Hey, you’re smart, even if you don’t get half of what he says… Chucko and Raff complained too, and if you watch them, they’ll roll their eyes after the fact.” > > So yeah, I feel stupid when people use acronyms without caring whether others understand. …you gonna explain to the rest of us who Chucko and Raff are, or just leave us hanging? ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/93 "2021-05-30T01:26:07Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Call it old age and treachery. It’s a winning tactic once you master it And in most cases, treachery is how you get to old age. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/94 "2021-05-30T01:31:42Z")
> [@keeganst94](#): > > Is there some sort of corollary to muphry’s law that when complaining about people not explaining acronyms, the post will contain at least one undefined acronym? Yes. It’s called the MLC. ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/95 "2021-05-30T01:44:23Z")
Re: ILMVI > [@Spoons](#): > > …It makes no sense as a Roman numeral, but if it is a Roman numeral, then the best I can make of it is “957.” I fully endorse this pitting of 957. Why do we even need it on this board? Would anyone really miss it if it went away? Wouldn’t it be far better and more efficient to go straight from 956 to 958? And another thing: I am fucking tired of 957’s incessant whining about 953 getting more attention because it’s a prime number. I can’t believe the mods continue to allow this. 957 should have been banned ages ago. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/96 "2021-05-30T01:47:43Z")
> [@Dropo](#): > > I fully endorse this pitting of 957. Why do we even need it on this board? Would anyone really miss it if it went away? Wouldn’t it be far better and more efficient to go straight from 956 to 958? Powerful stuff. Echoes of _The Third Man_: > You know, I never feel comfortable on these sort of things. Victims? Don’t be melodramatic. _[gestures to people far below]_ Tell me. Would you really feel any pity if one of those dots stopped moving forever? If I offered you twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money, or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare? Free of income tax, old man. Free of income tax - the only way you can save money nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/97 "2021-05-30T01:52:34Z")
What does **ASL\_v2.0** stand for? Every time I see it I get distracted from the thread I’m reading, while I’m trying to figure it out. Maybe I should put it on “ignore” so I don’t keep getting distracted. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/98 "2021-05-30T01:57:08Z")
It wouldn’t work. Then you’d find yourself wondering, every time you passed over a post of mine, _whose post did I just pass over as hidden_? And that would be even more confounding than just passing over the acronym itself, but leaving the rest unmolested. Anyway, maybe that’s one of the reasons I’m so sensitive to the forced outing of acronyms, being an acronym of sorts myself. First they come for your BVRs, then your SFWs. Then, when all the other acronyms have been stripped down, laid bare, and exposed… it’s you. You’re the next acronym whose days are numbered. So I protest. I protest for the BVR to save myself. And what is an acronym but a string of words condensed? When all the acronyms are gone—myself included—whose to say _you_, @Northern_Piper, you mere string of words on the interwebs, whose to say YOU won’t be next to pay the piper? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/99 "2021-05-30T02:00:01Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > …you gonna explain to the rest of us who Chucko and Raff are, or just leave us hanging? Biographies of my friends would be even more tedious than any ACRO (not just an ‘abbrev’, it’s also an Acronym Chosen when Rambling Ostentatiously). ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2021, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142/100 "2021-05-30T02:02:11Z")
This was linked in the OP, but it’s worth looking at in full. In response to this post, > [@Dogfights in the post Top Gun era?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/12): > > AMRAAM was used at BVR range. The shots was taken because the escorting pilot la didn’t like what their opponent was doing, getting too close to an attacking aircraft. > > Even the air to ground parts were at long range, using the H4 SOW (range 120 km) and REK bombs (range \<20 km). > [@Dogfights in the post Top Gun era?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/29): > > I’m curious… when you write “BVR” do you > > 1. Assume that we all know what that means. > 2. Believe that this is an aerial warfare forum so even if we don’t know it, we should. > 3. Not give a fuck. then when given the answer, he said > [@Dogfights in the post Top Gun era?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/31): > > Thanks, but that doesn’t answer the question For which he was rightfully given a mod note. That’s annoying. The whole thread was filled with acronyms and the post he was bitching about wasn’t even the first one which used BVR. As @LSLGuy says, this was a high level discussion and as such it’s going to be expected that if you aren’t familiar with the terminology you won’t understand everything. > [@MrDibble](#): > > This, too. Really, the way I see it, it’s almost like he just scans threads for more than one capital letter together, in order to complain. It’s both some level of stalkerish behaviour - only for a post-style rather than a poster - and it’s a form of junior modding. In any case, something jerky. There was another poster who made it their purpose in life to scan for the misuse of “proscribe.” They would jump in and ask sarcastic questions belittling people who had used that instead of “prescribe.” It became obvious that they didn’t care about the thread itself, it was just their pet peeve and they were going to let everyone know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-ilmvi-for-complaining-incessantly-about-acronyms/943142.md?page=6)