# I pit irony **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129 "2008-12-14T17:13:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/41 "2008-12-19T18:58:38Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Obviously, because he could care less. Which means he must care a lot, or at least some, otherwise he would have said he couldn’t care less. > > Except that “could(n’t) care less” is a commonly given example of the way idioms and words both change over time to assume new meanings, sometimes the opposite of their original meaning. It’s not irony, it’s language drift. See also: ambivalent. I’m not a student of its origin, but I always assumed “I could care less” was either a kind of sarcasm (picture a Wayne’s world “…not!” added to the end) or a shortened version of something like, “I could care less, but probably not much.” Are you sure this was language drift, something that assumed a meaning that would not have been inferred when the phrase was first used this way? > [@](#): > > In other words, you got whooshed, my friend. Or I just did; one can never be quite sure where whooshes are concerned. True dat. But I took from the tone of the overall post that he was taking exception with my playing usage cop, and he wanted in closing to make sure I knew my contribution to this thread was beneath his notice (despite his having actually, um, noticed it). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/42 "2008-12-19T19:20:19Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I can’t, um, really define irony, but I know when I see it! > Lelaina: I mean, these job interviews, Troy… The word “vivesection” a staggering understatement. I mean, can you define irony? > Troy: It’s when the actual meaning is the complete opposite from the literal meaning. > Lelaina: My God, where were you when I needed you today? > > /Reality Bites > So yeah, The Gift of the Magi is not ironic. I adore that movie, honestly, but Troy gave 'Laina only one definition of the most applicable form of irony - verbal irony. (As she was trying to answer the question to a newspaper editor, verbal irony would most likely have been the acceptable definition to the interviewer.) And, of course, ironically, Troy was being terse and uncomfortable, not helpful, while 'Laina was pretending everything was okay with their relationship - the scene itself was ironic. Ironic, huh? “The Gift of the Magi” does indeed demonstrate Cosmic Irony, sometimes called Irony of Fate in classrooms. It’s a close cousin of Situational Irony, with the added element of paranoia that larger forces are fucking with us for their amusement. Oh, oh, wait a sec. Doesn’t it also end with the narrator saying > [@](#): > > And here I have lamely related to you the uneventful chronicle of two foolish children in a flat who most unwisely sacrificed for each other the greatest treasures of their house. But in a last word to the wise of these days let it be said that of all who give gifts these two were the wisest. O all who give and receive gifts, such as they are wisest. Everywhere they are wisest. They are the magi. In that use, “foolish children” and “unwisely sacrificed” are ironic as well, since the narrator actually means (and goes on to say) that they are indeed wise. So there’s Verbal Irony as well. **Stratocaster** , no I’m not sure it’s language drift, since there’s no codifying body for English. Some people do think it’s a shortened form of “As if I could care less” or “I could care less, but it’s not worth the effort”, some think it’s sarcastic, but lots explain [it](http://able2know.org/topic/59924-7) [as](http://volokh.com/posts/1205180712.shtml)[language](http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-700197.html)[drift](http://www.vbmonster.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/vb/25901/Data-Type-String). I assumed that’s how \*\*Ludovic \*\*was using it 'cause it’s cleverest that way: a post of intentional not-irony in a thread about things assumed to be ironic that aren’t. But I could be overestimating **Ludovic** ’s skill here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/43 "2008-12-19T19:25:39Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Words mean what they mean, not what we want them to, and all that… So, you’re saying that words have an independent existence outside of how they’re actually used? That would mean that language is not so much invented as it is discovered. All of these words are just sort of floating around out there, each with a pre-existing and distinct definition, waiting for someone to come along and pluck them out of the ether? Which raises a disturbing question: what if we’re _all_ not using the right definition? What if “definition” doesn’t actually mean, “what a word means,” but instead means something else entirely, and we’ve all been misusing it all along? Think how embarassing that would be! ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/44 "2008-12-19T19:38:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, you’re saying that words have an independent existence outside of how they’re actually used? Yes, in instances where they are used improperly. Did you not know that? > [@](#): > > That would mean that language is not so much invented as it is discovered. All of these words are just sort of floating around out there, each with a pre-existing and distinct definition, waiting for someone to come along and pluck them out of the ether? No. Did you really think I meant that? Really? Words have commonly accepted meanings, meanings that can indeed shift. But at any given moment, a word’s common meaning is, well, what it is. So the short answer to a question that is essentially, “Why can’t a certain word be commonly accepted as meaning something other than what it is commonly accepted to mean?” is, “Because it can’t. By definition.” > [@](#): > > Which raises a disturbing question: what if we’re _all_ not using the right definition? What if “definition” doesn’t actually mean, “what a word means,” but instead means something else entirely, and we’ve all been misusing it all along? Think how embarassing that would be! Yeah, right. How unclear of me to have implied such a ridiculous notion. And in a post where I was pedantically trying to encourage clear word usage. It’s, it’s…what’s that word I’m trying to think of? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/45 "2008-12-19T19:40:58Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > And in a post where I was pedantically trying to encourage clear word usage. It’s, it’s…what’s that word I’m trying to think of? Sarcastic? Snarky? Unfortunate? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/46 "2008-12-19T19:45:53Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Sarcastic? Snarky? Unfortunate? Cromulent. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/47 "2008-12-19T22:03:27Z")
Rain on your wedding day can be ironic. If you are a weather man. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/48 "2008-12-20T09:27:38Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Words have commonly accepted meanings, meanings that can indeed shift. But at any given moment, a word’s common meaning is, well, what it is. And how many people, today, do you think know the “real” definition of irony, as opposed to the Alanis Morisette definition? ---
**Author:** ![FreeByAnyMeans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@FreeByAnyMeans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreeByAnyMeans)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/49 "2008-12-20T10:28:15Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [US anti-kidnapping expert kidnapped in Mexico](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081215/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_american_kidnapped_2) And there you have it. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/50 "2008-12-20T10:39:27Z")
It reminds me of those words “serendipity” and “synchronicity”. There are very few instances when you can use them. Same with irony. Q ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/51 "2008-12-20T14:17:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And how many people, today, do you think know the “real” definition of irony, as opposed to the Alanis Morisette definition? I don’t know. I’m inferring you think it’s most, and if that’s the case, perhaps we do have an expanded definition. But that’s not my (perhaps uninformed) impression. Frankly, prior to Alanis’s song (and since, for that matter) I don’t recall many people using irony in such a manner. “Hey, Bob, last week it rained on my wedding day. And then on Tuesday at work, when I was looking for a knife in the pantry, there were nothing but spoons for coffee in the drawer. Pretty ironic, eh?” Maybe I give the common man too much credit, but it seems to me most people would be confused by the usage here. “What’s ironic about that?” Beyond that, irony is a complex concept, with several nuances, as has been pointed out. From my perspective, it’s a word, like countless others, that lots of people don’t fully understand. In my experience, most people don’t use the word at all, actually. But I will stand corrected if the usage has shifted and the language gods have nodded toward this change. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129/52 "2008-12-20T16:03:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Rain on your wedding day can be ironic. > > If you are a weather man. Now I have this weird desire to rewrite the song so that the situations described are indeed ironic. “It’s like raaaaaaaain on a weatherman’s wedding cake” “It’s like good advise that you get right after the decision is irrevocable and going wrong, from the very person you would have least expected to have given it, but they were there all the time, but now it’s too late, and the reason you didn’t ask them is because you thought they would be biased the other way anyway. And then it turns out to have been the right decision for the wrong reasons, but it took years for you to appreciate this, and the Gods themselves laughed at your petty mortal foolishness.” I can see why she cut some corners. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-irony/477129.md?page=2)