# I pit Jesus and all other fairy godfathers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264 "2011-02-05T06:18:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/61 "2011-02-05T23:23:23Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > And it is not inherenty antithetical to science (though it certainly can be), but clearly you have made up your mind on that point. Of course it is; science is based on rationality and facts, and both of those are things religion _by definition_ rejects. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > God **isn’t** a sky pixie. Not all supernatural beings are equivalent. For the purposes of whether or not they should be taken seriously, yes they are. Imaginary is imaginary. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > You wouldn’t say that a horse is a whale because both are mammals, but when something is imaginary suddenly you don’t have to think about it seriously. There’s nothing to think about seriously. _Because it’s imaginary_. There’s no there there. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’m talking about trying to understand intellectual constructs before dismissing them out of hand, and all you do is whine that they’re stupid. Isn’t it a basic priciple of science that you gather and categorize the evidence first, and then theorize based on everything, not just select criteria? Why should an ideational system be any different than particle physics? Because particles are actually there to be studied? Because particle physics isn’t wholly based on lies? There’s no actual objective facts for me to “gather and categorize”. Do I need to study anti-Semitic conspiracy theories too before rejecting them as nonsense? Ufology? Breatharianism? There’s no evidence for me to study, and I’m not particularly interested in studying a self contradictory collection of lies, which is all religion is. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/62 "2011-02-06T00:44:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I believe that I was directly responding to **Lord Ashtar’s** commonly held religionist’s viewpoint of “Stop trying to tell other people what to believe and just live your own life.”, something most atheists would subscribe to in a New York minute if it were followed by both sides. You’re saying that you won’t live up to your own beliefs because other people won’t do it first? How pitiful. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/63 "2011-02-06T02:22:52Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > You’re saying that you won’t live up to your own beliefs because other people won’t do it first? How pitiful. That’s silly. Is someone who fights back against an attacker “unwilling to live up to their beliefs” that they don’t want to be attacked because they dare to defend themselves? How very convenient; according to you, either he’s supposed to sit there passively and take whatever the believers choose to dish out, or he’s a hypocrite. Funny how that always works out for believers; the “right” decision according to them is always “let us stomp on you or you are oppressing us.” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/64 "2011-02-06T02:29:21Z")
As a Fairy Godfather and minor godling, I’m offended by the claims that I don’t exist or that I’m a pack of lies. Asshole Humans. The ones I call “The Many” were right. Humans are too arrogant for their own good. A pack of 14 year old kids hitting puberty as a race and thinking they know everything. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/65 "2011-02-06T03:09:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s silly. Is someone who fights back against an attacker “unwilling to live up to their beliefs” that they don’t want to be attacked because they dare to defend themselves? How very convenient; according to you, either he’s supposed to sit there passively and take whatever the believers choose to dish out, or he’s a hypocrite. Funny how that always works out for believers; the “right” decision according to them is always “let us stomp on you or you are oppressing us.” Analogy fail. Taking no action (IE leaving people the alone and minding your own fucking business wrt what they believe and what you believe) is not equivalent to punching someone in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/66 "2011-02-06T03:50:08Z")
**Der Trihs** , oh really? So no religious person can believe in evolution, the Big Bang, etc? They’re all creationists, Biblical literalists? You’re so eager to believe the worst of people, just so full of malice, that you can’t even see the people around you here. I don’t want anyone to “shut up and be a good little atheist.” The reason I’ve told you to “shut up?” Because you’re a misogynistic, hateful bigotted, moronic little shit. You’re so prepared to dish it out, but then when it comes back to you, you whine and say, “well they started it!” You’re more full of shit than a diaper pail. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/67 "2011-02-06T03:51:28Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Analogy fail. Taking no action (IE leaving people the alone and minding your own fucking business wrt what they believe and what you believe) is not equivalent to punching someone in the face. Nor did I say it was. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/68 "2011-02-06T04:37:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nor did I say it was. Yeah, you did. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/69 "2011-02-06T04:49:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > For the purposes of whether or not they should be taken seriously, yes they are. Imaginary is imaginary. I see. So you reject out of hand the classification of literature into mystery, science fiction, poetry, et cetera, because anything fictional is (1) interchangeable and (2) not worth understanding. And of course your position about intellectual constructs means you dismiss philosophy and other abstract thought. I suspect that it’s only religion that offends you, because you believe it pretends to be real while literature is only art reflecting reality and philosophy an intellectual endeavor based on real issues. In only words, religion isn’t just incorrect, but a lie. That position is not logically defensible when the whole of religion is understood within its cultural context. Certainly there are individuals and institutions who have hypocritically used religion to grab power and / or oppress people, but that’s not the whole picture. Calling people’s gods names like “fairy” and “sky pixie” is frankly childish (except in jest—then it’s kind of funny). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/70 "2011-02-06T05:15:07Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Yeah, you did. No, I didn’t say that or anything close to it, as I’m sure you know. You are just trying to distort what I’m saying to cover the obvious self serving nature of your position. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I see. So you reject out of hand the classification of literature into mystery, science fiction, poetry, et cetera, because anything fictional is (1) interchangeable and (2) not worth understanding. :rolleyes: Not worth _taking seriously_. Do I need to be a Tolkien expert before I can dismiss _The Lord of the Rings_ as fictional? > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > And of course your position about intellectual constructs means you dismiss philosophy and other abstract thought. If the philosophy in question is based on lies, then of course I do. Unlike religion however it is possible for philosophy to be rational, and even for it to be correct by something other than blind luck since it isn’t faith based. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I suspect that it’s only religion that offends you, because you believe it pretends to be real while literature is only art reflecting reality and philosophy an intellectual endeavor based on real issues. In only words, religion isn’t just incorrect, but a lie. That position is not logically defensible when the whole of religion is understood within its cultural context. Religion asserts that fantasies are true in contradiction to the actual facts; that makes it an error, lie or delusion and any “larger cultural context” is utterly irrelevant. And I also despise religion because it is a force for evil in the the world; even if it there were gods, I’d still oppose it. Religion corrupts morally as well as intellectually. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Certainly there are individuals and institutions who have hypocritically used religion to grab power and / or oppress people, but that’s not the whole picture. No, more often they aren’t being hypocritical at all when they do that. Typically it’s the people who do good in the name of religion that are being hypocrites. Torturing people who don’t profess the “right” faith, killing unbelievers, conversion by the sword; none of those are hypocritical when they are the clear logical outcome of a religion, or outright called for by it. Evil, but not hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/71 "2011-02-06T05:29:24Z")
**Der Trihs** , I’ll try one more time. Religion is the name of a cultural system which exists and is therefore not fictional. Part of the system includes fictional beliefs, which are purported to be true.\* Since literally billions of humans engage in these systems, it behooves you to take them seriously, even if you do not share the beliefs. To go back to literature, you don’t need to be a Tolkien expert to “dismiss” (your word) _Lord of the Rings_ as fictional. You would be a fool, however, if you thought that classifying it as fictional was the extent of the attention it deserved. \*This “true” is often a get-to-the-heart-of-things “deep” truth rather than a literal / factual one, which is one way that believers can be religious and still accept the principles and finding of science, but I expect that distinction is beyond you. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/72 "2011-02-06T05:54:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, I didn’t say that or anything close to it, as I’m sure you know. Please stop lying. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You are just trying to distort what I’m saying to cover the obvious self serving nature of your position. My position is self-serving only in that I don’t think _ **anyone** _ should be telling anyone else how to live their life or what to believe. I don’t want you to hear you talking about how stupid theists are for following a bearded man who lives in the clouds any more than I want to hear my fundamentalist father telling my atheistic best friend that he’s going to Hell because he won’t subscribe to my dad’s specific interpretation of the Bible. I welcome earnest dialog that doesn’t degenerate into insults and name calling, such as the one that helped me get over my cognitive dissonance regarding creationism early in my posting career here, but you have shown over and over again that you are not capable of such a discussion. I have yet to see you add anything of substance to any of those threads, because you repeat the same tired crap every single time (“theists are dumb derp derp”). You’re not interested in changing people’s minds, or else you’d modify your approach as many other people on this board have suggested to you multiple times over the years. In short, you are utterly useless as a poster in Great Debates in general and religious threads in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/73 "2011-02-06T12:37:01Z")
I’m an atheist. And I have to admit, a big part of me is a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/74 "2011-02-06T13:06:00Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Please stop lying. I’m not. Nothing I said remotely resembled what you claimed I said, as I’m sure you know. You, not I am the liar - not that I expect honesty out of someone willing to defend religion. Doing so by definition shows a disrespect for facts. > [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > My position is self-serving only in that I don’t think _ **anyone** _ should be telling anyone else how to live their life or what to believe. I don’t want you to hear you talking about how stupid theists are for following a bearded man who lives in the clouds any more than I want to hear my fundamentalist father telling my atheistic best friend that he’s going to Hell because he won’t subscribe to my dad’s specific interpretation of the Bible. Very noble sounding; except that as I’m sure you know quite well the believers aren’t going to stop pushing their nonsense. So your exhortations towards atheists in reality are just a demand they sit there and take it. > [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I have yet to see you add anything of substance to any of those threads, because you repeat the same tired crap every single time (“theists are dumb derp derp”). That is because I’m arguing against the exact same “tired crap” from theists; they never produce anything new. They are wrong now for the same reasons they were wrong a century ago. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **Der Trihs** , I’ll try one more time. Religion is the name of a cultural system which exists and is therefore not fictional. That’s just twisting words. _Lord of the Rings_ is fictional. _Star Wars_ is fictional. Religion is fictional. You are just squirming to find a way you can classify religion as something not fictional. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Part of the system includes fictional beliefs, which are purported to be true.\* Since literally billions of humans engage in these systems, it behooves you to take them seriously, even if you do not share the beliefs. I take them seriously _as a danger_. That doesn’t mean they need to be taken seriously in any other way. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > To go back to literature, you don’t need to be a Tolkien expert to “dismiss” (your word) _Lord of the Rings_ as fictional. You would be a fool, however, if you thought that classifying it as fictional was the extent of the attention it deserved. Don’t be ridiculous. I dismiss religion because it is fictional, because its whole claim to importance is that it supposedly isn’t. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > \*This “true” is often a get-to-the-heart-of-things “deep” truth rather than a literal / factual one, which is one way that believers can be religious and still accept the principles and finding of science, but I expect that distinction is beyond you. Hardly, it’s called compartmentalization and making up nonsense to defend nonsense. They make up a special nonexistent category of “deep truth” so they can pretend that their baseless delusions are worthy of being taken seriously despite being contradicted by actual truth. And they do so in order to function in a world that contradicts pretty much everything they believe. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/75 "2011-02-06T16:17:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m not. Nothing I said remotely resembled what you claimed I said, as I’m sure you know. You, not I am the liar - not that I expect honesty out of someone willing to defend religion. Doing so by definition shows a disrespect for facts. If you were to take off your “OMG religion thread THEISTS ARE EVIL” blinders and read for comprehension, you’ll notice that I have not once defended religion in this thread. > [@](#): > > Very noble sounding; except that as I’m sure you know quite well the believers aren’t going to stop pushing their nonsense. So your exhortations towards atheists in reality are just a demand they sit there and take it. You sure love your hasty generalizations, doncha? > [@](#): > > That is because I’m arguing against the exact same “tired crap” from theists; they never produce anything new. They are wrong now for the same reasons they were wrong a century ago. I suppose that if you haven’t been able to read for comprehension by now, then there’s no point in trying to reexplain it to you. You truly are a lost cause. ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/76 "2011-02-06T18:43:58Z")
I’m reminded of the Dane Cook bit where he says “god bless you” to a man who has just sneezed. The man turns to him and says “hmph, I’m an atheist”. To which Dane Cook replies “So I’m all like bro, I mean dude, right? Like, BROOOODUDE!!! COOKIES!!!” While making exaggerated gestures. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/77 "2011-02-06T18:51:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Very noble sounding; except that as I’m sure you know quite well the believers aren’t going to stop pushing their nonsense. So your exhortations towards atheists in reality are just a demand they sit there and take it. Bullshit. No one’s saying you shouldn’t stick up for yourself if someone’s being obnoxious. HOWEVER, if someone else is minding their own business, and you know they’re a theist, don’t turn around and push YOUR beliefs or non-beliefs or whatever at them. If someone’s not bothering you, if they’re NOT witnessing at, or harassing you, then shut the fuck up. Quit with your generalizations – you’ve met quite a number of people here who are theists who AREN’T fundies, but apparently, we don’t count. You’re a bitter, hateful shitbag, who stereotypes everyone who doesn’t think like you, and then turns around and calls everyone else intolerant. Apparently, you must not own a mirror. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/78 "2011-02-07T03:48:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > First, not everyone who believes in a god is Christian. Second, speaking your mind doesn’t mean you go around calling everyone who does believe in god a “deluded nutjob who worships a magical skyfairy.” Nor are all Christians a bunch of fucktards who want to force everyone to believe as they do, or say they’re all going to hell. Those are just the ones you notice the most. > > It’s gotten so people can’t even have a discussion about religion without some asshole coming in and saying, “Religion is a lie!” I’m not talking about witnessing threads, but discussions about say, “what does religion X teach about subject Y?” Or, “what exactly is ‘y’, and what does religion X say about, or what is its purpose?” > > When the fundies do it, they’re jackasses. But apparently, it’s okay for YOU guys to do it. Because you have the Truth on your side! > > You’re all a bunch of assholes. I don’t care WHAT you believe or not believe. Just don’t be a dick about it. You don’t “speak up for what you believe.” You just go around making up a bunch of stereotypes, and then when called on it, play the martyr game. **Der Trihs** is especially guilty of this. > > Fuck this bullshit – you’re just a bunch of fundies. > (Edited to add: there’s a LOT of ignorance spread around about what religious people believe. NOT ALL CHRISTIANS/JEWS/MUSLIMS ARE ANTI-SCIENCE!!! GAH!) Yeah well said, I find some atheists are ignorant and when a religious person states that they believe in science they get howled down as picking and choosing what parts you believe in. You believe what you want, just don’t force it down my throat. Same goes for all the loopy fundys. Atheists are sometimes guilty of forgetting what the problem with religion is, it is mans’ quest for power. Rally against the church, I will even help but respect is two way. I have a view on my life, it is time for people to respect that. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264/79 "2011-02-07T04:01:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The difference is, the Left is correct. The Right is full of loonies and worse, and they have repeatedly demonstrated that not only do they not know how the real world works, they don’t care. Unlike us in the “reality based community”. Dude I am a lefty from waaaay back. Sheet even Jesus was a long haired, socialist hippy! The right wing religious folk are dangerous, just as dangerous as the right wing atheists. So what you are saying is that the right are the problem? That I can agree with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-jesus-and-all-other-fairy-godfathers/570264.md?page=3)