# I pit John Cage's " 4'33" " **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814 "2014-09-08T01:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/181 "2014-10-25T02:04:19Z")
> [@Moe](#): > > I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but just wanted to mention I actually was there for the most recent changing of the note, which is actually the last one for 7 years. It was pretty exciting. JEALOUS!! Tell us more! ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/182 "2014-10-29T17:55:19Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Imagine turning on _America’s Got Talent_ and someone goes on stage and plays nothing for 4’33." > > The reaction is the piece. Classical aficionados won’t storm out because they understand how silence is vital to music. They also know that Cage did write some amazing stuff so he’s not just a hack. > > Your typical bandwagon-U2 fan won’t get the concept and demand a refund because in 2014 you’re entitled to 2-hours of nonstop visceral excitement or else you didn’t get your money’s worth. > > Welcome to the death of art everybody! I hope you are kidding. Caling this art is an insult to real art. Art is a creative process. Taking an idea from the mind to the physical world. It is not the creation of nothing out of nothing. If you believe it is, then I have a beautiful painting that you would like to buy. I haven’t actually painted it. It is in my mind, a creation of my imagination. That seems to be enough for you, so send me your paypal address, and I’ll send you an invoice. I will even throw in free shipping. It will be there before you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/183 "2014-10-29T18:13:00Z")
I don’t think it was art. I don’t think it was nothing. I think it was John Cage’s joke on the classical music world. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/184 "2014-10-29T18:24:19Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > If you believe it is, then I have a beautiful painting that you would like to buy. I haven’t actually painted it. It is in my mind, a creation of my imagination. > > That seems to be enough for you, so send me your paypal address, and I’ll send you an invoice. I will even throw in free shipping. It will be there before you know it. Maybe if you come up with something original, rather than ripping off 19th century ideas, I’d be interested. Blank paintings were a thing well before 4’33’'. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/185 "2014-10-29T19:40:45Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I think it was John Cage’s joke on the classical music world. Not in the least. Please go back and read Post #155. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/186 "2014-10-29T21:27:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Maybe if you come up with something original, rather than ripping off 19th century ideas, I’d be interested. Blank paintings were a thing well before 4’33’'. Ah, but it IS original! My painting is not a blank canvas. My painting has NO canvas! I’m is just an abstract thought in my head. No canvas or frame needed! Is that art or what? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/187 "2014-10-29T21:30:20Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I hope you are kidding. > > Caling this art is an insult to real art. > > Art is a creative process. Taking an idea from the mind to the physical world. > > It is not the creation of nothing out of nothing. > > If you believe it is, then I have a beautiful painting that you would like to buy. I haven’t actually painted it. It is in my mind, a creation of my imagination. > > That seems to be enough for you, so send me your paypal address, and I’ll send you an invoice. I will even throw in free shipping. It will be there before you know it. I made the unfortunate decision to get my college degree in music. In our freshman theory seminar, the teacher introduced a student who was going to play a short piece for us. He approached the piano, and sat there in silence for 4’33". One student, sitting in the back, rose up and shouted to the teacher “this is horseshit!” and proceeded to storm out of the lecture hall. After this…unusual experience, I finally understood what Cage was going for. His intention was to flip the traditional performance experience: the audience became the performer and the performer the audience. The disgruntled mumbles, the stifled coughs, and, forsooth, the outburst of the renounced; all _became_ the piece. Art, as you say, is about ideas. Ideas that often can’t be expressed in words. Cage’s artistic intent was to express the ideas elicited through silence. Against the backdrop of anticipated aural stimulation, that silence became both soothing and deafening. Where the mind wanders in such a situation–the tune your brain fabricates, the memories you recall, the awkwardness of trying to deny the awkwardness of a large crowd sitting in silence–is the very fabric of what makes art valuable. It becomes meaningful to you for your own private reasons. It can’t and shouldn’t be explicated; it was between you and the vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/188 "2014-10-29T21:43:13Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Is that art or what? Yep, it’s art. Not very interesting, worthwhile, aesthetically pleasing, or original, but still art. Well done you. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/189 "2014-10-29T22:49:51Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > It can’t and shouldn’t be explicated; it was between you and the vacuum. Exactly. Performance Art. Don’t make it out to be what it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/190 "2014-10-30T11:59:53Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Exactly. Performance Art. Don’t make it out to be what it is not. Yes, but it only works as performance art if it’s presented as a musical performance. Stringbean describes it well - it’s a reversal of the traditional performance roles. As such, it can only work in the context of those roles. Presented as anything other than a musical performance it loses its meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/191 "2014-10-31T17:55:50Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I’ve realised what’s going on here. It’s not the piece itself - it’s the performance. What you see in the OP’s link is a 4’33" _played badly_. I literally clapped, with my actual hands, on reading this. Well done! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/192 "2014-10-31T21:32:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I literally clapped, with my actual hands, on reading this. To demonstrate true respect for Cage’s work, one claps using only one hand. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/193 "2014-11-01T00:22:31Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > As such, it can only work in the context of those roles. Presented as anything other than a musical performance it loses its meaning. [3’ 04" Lost in time, and lost in space . . . and meaning.](http://youtu.be/esQ0tNoVXKk) (Hey, it’s Halloween.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/194 "2014-11-01T00:30:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was an interesting concept in 1952. > > But it’s 2014. Well, in the modern revival, it’s music to check your e-mails by. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=9)