# I pit John Cage's " 4'33" " **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814 "2014-09-08T01:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/81 "2014-09-08T18:54:32Z")
What intrigues me about this discussion is the assumption that a piece like 4’33" has an intellectual point to “get” and once you “get” that point there’s no reason to listen to it. It’s like saying “Oh, I read the Cliff Notes to _Great Expectations_. I know what it’s about. So why bother reading it?” The point of a performance of 4’33" is to have a structured listening experience that’s directed toward the “ground” rather the “figure”. We listen differently when we’re in a concert setting. We pay attention in different ways. And normally we pay attention to the music that’s in the foreground. The silence in the background exists as something for the music to play off of. 4’33" is an opportunity to attend to the texture of that normally inaudible background. And understanding that intellectually is not the same as actually doing it, just like understanding the theory behind how to swing a baseball bat is not the same as hitting a line drive. And whence the hate? What has 4’33" ever done to you? And if some people occasionally want to hear of a performance of something you don’t like, why do you care? [It’s okay to not like things.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/82 "2014-09-08T19:06:45Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > And whence the hate? If it were not for the hate, the thread would not be in The Pit, and thereby would be one step closer to being relegated to history, rather than being kept alive and actively forming part of our ongoing culture, due to the performance art which is the SDMB’s Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/83 "2014-09-08T19:06:49Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > If you liked 4’33", your going to love the sermons at the Quaker meetings. > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I attended Quaker meeting within the last month. An entirely different experience. I was raised Quaker. Their sermons are not much different than those at United Methodist services. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/84 "2014-09-08T19:27:04Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I don’t understand this sentence. How can they be your friend, _and_ have the sheet music for 4’33"? They keep quiet about it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/85 "2014-09-08T19:36:23Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > They keep quiet about it? Yeah, but for how long? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/86 "2014-09-08T19:38:07Z")
When I go to to a concert I enjoy the way the different players interact and come together to form a cohesive unit with the conductor, the venue and perhaps with the audience itself. This is done through many years of dedicated individual hard work, then many weeks of rehearsal. This piece, on the other hand, could have been performed with a room full of properly dressed stand-ins with five minutes of instruction on how to hold a musical instrument and an actor in a tux with instructions on otherwise blank pieces of paper saying what facial expressions to make at what time. A person attending the event from out of town that didn’t have personal knowledge of the local orchestral scene wouldn’t have known the difference…and would probably be talking with friends about frame and texture and ambiance etc. This isn’t “hate”-this is just disappointment that real talent was wasted on such a piece, and that _anyone_ dressed the same would have got the same applause. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/87 "2014-09-08T19:38:51Z")
> [@Walton\_Firm](#): > > I thought it didn’t really become performance art until another composer put a “one minute of silence” filler track on their album, [got sued by the Cage estate and had to pay a six-figure settlement](http://classicalconvert.com/2007/07/the-stupidest-music-lawsuit-ever-infringing-on-cages-433/). I read reports, probably apocryphal, of: - Batt’s attorney demanding to know exactly which 60 seconds had been plagiarized; - Batt, after the dust had settled, composing and copyrighting his own piece of silence, four minutes and thirty four seconds in length and titled (obviously) “4’34”, and promising to sue for any performances of 4’33 that went overtime. None of which is any less preposterous than what actually did happen. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/88 "2014-09-08T20:06:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Tl;dr version - fuck stuff you don’t understand. Yup. My puny widdle brain can’t comprehend true genius. There is no such thing as pretentiousness in art - only Philistines who are incapable of recognizing greatness. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/89 "2014-09-08T20:18:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When I go to to a concert I enjoy the way the different players interact and come together to form a cohesive unit with the conductor, the venue and perhaps with the audience itself. This is done through many years of dedicated individual hard work, then many weeks of rehearsal. This piece, on the other hand, could have been performed with a room full of properly dressed stand-ins with five minutes of instruction on how to hold a musical instrument and an actor in a tux with instructions on otherwise blank pieces of paper saying what facial expressions to make at what time. A person attending the event from out of town that didn’t have personal knowledge of the local orchestral scene wouldn’t have known the difference…and would probably be talking with friends about frame and texture and ambiance etc. This isn’t “hate”-this is just disappointment that real talent was wasted on such a piece, and that _anyone_ dressed the same would have got the same applause. That’s probably the best negative criticism of the piece I’ve heard, mostly because it actually engages with the flaws of the piece as music. I don’t agree that your criticism makes 4’33’’ worthless or bad, after all, if nothing else it’s lead to your reflection on what you want from music and enjoy about it, but that’s an extremely metatextual way to say it’s worthwhile. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Yup. My puny widdle brain can’t comprehend true genius. There is no such thing as pretentiousness in art - only Philistines who are incapable of recognizing greatness. Anyone who says > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > “fuck all self-professed avant garde art, the artists who make it, and the horse they all rode in on.” is aptly described as a philistine, and their opinions on art are worthless. Which doesn’t mean there’s no pretention in art (not that pretentious art is necessarily bad), but it’s clear that you are at best unwilling to consider that there’s genius in some avant-garde art, and have confused whether you enjoy something with whether it’s worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/90 "2014-09-08T20:29:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Anyone who says is aptly described as a philistine, and their opinions on art are worthless. > > Which doesn’t mean there’s no pretention in art (not that pretentious art is necessarily bad), but it’s clear that you are at best unwilling to consider that there’s genius in some avant-garde art, and have confused whether you enjoy something with whether it’s worthwhile. Critique the whole phrase now: _self-professed_ avant garde art. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/91 "2014-09-08T20:33:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Critique the whole phrase now: _self-professed_ avant garde art. OK. Which doesn’t mean there’s no pretention in art (not that pretentious art is necessarily bad), but it’s clear that you are at best unwilling to consider that there’s genius in some _self-professed_ avant-garde art, and have confused whether you enjoy something with whether it’s worthwhile. It changes nothing. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/92 "2014-09-08T20:36:59Z")
By the time anyone but the artist is able to define it as avant-garde, it is no longer avant-garde. ISTM almost definitionally self-professed. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/93 "2014-09-08T20:38:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When I go to to a concert I enjoy the way the different players interact and come together to form a cohesive unit with the conductor, the venue and perhaps with the audience itself. This is done through many years of dedicated individual hard work, then many weeks of rehearsal. This piece, on the other hand, could have been performed with a room full of properly dressed stand-ins with five minutes of instruction on how to hold a musical instrument and an actor in a tux with instructions on otherwise blank pieces of paper saying what facial expressions to make at what time. A person attending the event from out of town that didn’t have personal knowledge of the local orchestral scene wouldn’t have known the difference…and would probably be talking with friends about frame and texture and ambiance etc. This isn’t “hate”-this is just disappointment that real talent was wasted on such a piece, and that _anyone_ dressed the same would have got the same applause. What if, before they play 4’ 33", you hear them play a bunch of other pieces so its clear that they are musicians? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/94 "2014-09-08T20:41:17Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > What if, before they play 4’ 33", you hear them play a bunch of other pieces so its clear that they are musicians? What if they were miming the other pieces, and 4’33’’ was the only one they genuinely played? If someone hasn’t done that yet, they definitely should. ---
**Author:** ![Flywheel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Flywheel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flywheel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/95 "2014-09-08T21:30:01Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I quite like it, but the three-minute edit they did for Top 40 radio was a complete travesty. Believe it or not, Cage wrote a sequel to _4’33"_ called _0’0"_, whose score was once sentence long: “In a situation provided with maximum amplification, perform a disciplined action.” The first performance consisted of Cage writing that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/96 "2014-09-08T21:46:33Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Yup. My puny widdle brain can’t comprehend true genius. There is no such thing as pretentiousness in art - only Philistines who are incapable of recognizing greatness. What is so hard about “Hey, it’s not really my thing, but whatever floats your boat.” Nobody is criticizing you for not liking a avant guard art. People are criticizing you for attaching some bizarre moral superiority to not liking a mid-century stunt. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/97 "2014-09-08T23:32:06Z")
Um. I did not mean to imply moral superiority. Just to call Bullshit on WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE BULLSHIT NOT ART. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/98 "2014-09-08T23:47:26Z")
Me, I’d rather spend my time enjoying the stuff I like than being annoyed by the stuff I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/99 "2014-09-08T23:49:53Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Um. I did not mean to imply moral superiority. Just to call Bullshit on WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE BULLSHIT NOT ART. > Just sayin’. Something being bullshit doesn’t stop it being art. To say that something isn’t art when other people clearly think it is is, however, bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/100 "2014-09-08T23:52:27Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Just to call Bullshit on WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE BULLSHIT NOT ART. Who put you in charge of deciding what’s bullshit and what’s not? I’ll like what I want to like, thank you very much, regardless of what some self-proclaimed guardian of culture says is good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=6)