# I pit John Cage's " 4'33" " **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814 "2014-09-08T01:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/101 "2014-09-08T23:56:34Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Me, I’d rather spend my time enjoying the stuff I like than being annoyed by the stuff I don’t. Bingo! That’s what it all comes down to. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/102 "2014-09-09T00:05:03Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Bingo! That’s what it all comes down to. 🙂 I think what everybody in this thread mostly likes is arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/103 "2014-09-09T00:08:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I think what everybody in this thread mostly likes is arguing. You know what they say-It takes two to tangle. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/104 "2014-09-09T00:14:03Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The balls on these people. It’s really phenomenal. > [@Steophan](#): > > I suspect that if Batt hadn’t titled the piece after Cage and credited him as a co-writer without paying royalties, the lawsuit wouldn’t have happened. There are many silent tracks on many albums, none of which are attempts to copy Cage, and none have been considered as such legally. > > But acknowledging someone as a co-writer and not paying them is clearly wrong. > [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > I read reports, probably apocryphal, of: > > - Batt’s attorney demanding to know exactly which 60 seconds had been plagiarized; > - Batt, after the dust had settled, composing and copyrighting his own piece of silence, four minutes and thirty four seconds in length and titled (obviously) “4’34”, and promising to sue for any performances of 4’33 that went overtime. > > None of which is any less preposterous than what actually did happen. [Actually it was all a publicity stunt. There was no real lawsuit.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-11964995) ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/105 "2014-09-09T01:08:33Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Who put you in charge of deciding what’s bullshit and what’s not? I’ll like what I want to like, thank you very much, regardless of what some self-proclaimed guardian of culture says is good. Wow. BBQ Pit or not, I was expressing my own opinion of the piece identified in my O.P. I don’t recall attacking other people or saying that the fact that I call utter Emperor’s New Clothes on this piece means that anyone else’s opinion is not valid. I’m Pitting this asscrack of a “composer” and his “piece” of non-compositional non-performance. I’m allowed to do that. I wasn’t attacking anyone for their point of view and if it seems I was, well that was not at all my point. I’m allowed to disagree if you post in here that you find this to be art, or whatever. I can disagree most aggressively with your point of view. It doesn’t mean I am trying to decide or dictate. I’m also happy to pit the smugmuffins sitting in the audience, nodding wisely and smirking as they sit and enjoy…nothingness. God damn. The Dope has indeed changed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/106 "2014-09-09T01:28:30Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I don’t recall attacking other people or saying that the fact that I call utter Emperor’s New Clothes on this piece means that anyone else’s opinion is not valid. Actually, that’s exactly what it means. The precise point of the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes is that all the people who were talking about how much they liked the Emperor’s clothes were liars, who were making up stories about how much they liked something that didn’t exist, out of fear of being perceived as being ignorant or stupid. That’s the literal moral of the story. Hans Christian Anderson. What an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/107 "2014-09-09T01:41:19Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > [Actually it was all a publicity stunt. There was no real lawsuit.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-11964995) Wow! I can’t decide whether or not I’m disappointed, but thanks for the update. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/108 "2014-09-09T02:17:36Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Who put you in charge of deciding what’s bullshit and what’s not? I’ll like what I want to like, thank you very much, regardless of what some self-proclaimed guardian of culture says is good. Especially since the OP (whom I generally admire on the board) claimed to be steeped in music theory but had never heard of the most famous piece in the entire classical-cum-avant-garde canon?!? ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/109 "2014-09-09T03:09:34Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I’m also happy to pit the smugmuffins sitting in the audience, nodding wisely and smirking as they sit and enjoy…nothingness. **Stanislaus** pretty eloquently described his experience and specifically what he enjoyed about his experience. Based on his description, what he enjoyed did not equate to nothingness. I don’t see how he comes off as a smugmuffin deserving to be Pitted. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/110 "2014-09-09T10:03:36Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > **Stanislaus** pretty eloquently described his experience and specifically what he enjoyed about his experience. Based on his description, what he enjoyed did not equate to nothingness. > > I don’t see how he comes off as a smugmuffin deserving to be Pitted. Oh great. First I’m sane, and now I’m not even a smugmuffin. A person’s self esteem can really take a shredding round here. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/111 "2014-09-09T10:40:17Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I don’t understand this sentence. How can they be your friend, _and_ have the sheet music for 4’33"? “Hello, darkness, my old friend…” ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/112 "2014-09-09T11:34:42Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Oh great. First I’m sane, and now I’m not even a smugmuffin. A person’s self esteem can really take a shredding round here. But we like you ! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/113 "2014-09-09T14:16:20Z")
Aww, you guys. But is it possible that some (even most) of the other people who have time for 4’33" aren’t simpering pseuds either, but are, like me, reasonable, reflective and ruggedly handsome? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/114 "2014-09-09T14:42:26Z")
Nope !!! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/115 "2014-09-09T15:55:41Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I don’t recall attacking other people or saying that the fact that I call utter Emperor’s New Clothes on this piece means that anyone else’s opinion is not valid. > … > > I’m also happy to pit the smugmuffins sitting in the audience, nodding wisely and smirking as they sit and enjoy…nothingness. What you say before the ellipsis is contradicted by what you say after it. > [@](#): > > The Dope has indeed changed. Nah, this this the same “Abstract art is a scam!” garbage that’s been popping up in Cafe Society for years. Basically there are a bunch of snobs (yourself included) who think that their aesthetic judgement trumps everyone else’s. So when they see a “smugmuffin” seeming to enjoy something that’s obviously “bullshit” they think that the “smugmuffin” can’t really be enjoying the “bullshit”. They’re just doing it to look cool, or smart, or sophisticated. They’re smirking poseurs. Here’s the thing. It’s possible for people to honestly enjoy something you think is crap. They’re not pretending to like it to make themselves look good or make you feel stupid. They really do like it, and when you act like their honest interest is just posturing, you’re being an insulting jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/116 "2014-09-09T17:37:28Z")
It is little known, but Cage composed a follow-up lieder, which was performed by Harpo Marx. BTW, three pages on this old and well-known piece shows that Cage wins. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/117 "2014-09-09T18:08:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, three pages on this old and well-known piece shows that Cage wins. It’s not what’s being said, but what is NOT being said that’s important. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/118 "2014-09-09T23:30:34Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What you say before the ellipsis is contradicted by what you say after it. > > Nah, this this the same “Abstract art is a scam!” garbage that’s been popping up in Cafe Society for years. > > Basically there are a bunch of snobs (yourself included) who think that their aesthetic judgement trumps everyone else’s. So when they see a “smugmuffin” seeming to enjoy something that’s obviously “bullshit” they think that the “smugmuffin” can’t really be enjoying the “bullshit”. They’re just doing it to look cool, or smart, or sophisticated. They’re smirking poseurs. > > Here’s the thing. It’s possible for people to honestly enjoy something you think is crap. They’re not pretending to like it to make themselves look good or make you feel stupid. They really do like it, and when you act like their honest interest is just posturing, you’re being an insulting jerk. My goodness. Yes, thank you. I’m perfectly aware that it’s possible for people to honestly enjoy something I think is crap. Here’s the thing. I think it’s great that they derive pleasure from such a situation, just as I think it’s great that I am permitted to Pit the steaming pile of pseudo-art known as " 4’33" ". And, just so we are all crystal-clear here: I’m not pitting what I saw in the video linked in my O.P. because I wanted to be an insulting jerk. You think I crossed the Don’t Be A Jerk line, then send a PM to the board Moderators reporting my O.P. But don’t go Junior-Modding, calling me a jerk when I was simply pitting something I deemed Pit-Worthy. I was in NO way attacking you for enjoying whatever it is you listen to or do not listen to. I was absolutely insulting the nitwits sitting there smugly, nodding knowingly, having listened to…exactly no music. P.S. I love abstract art. This…this…thing I linked wasn’t abstract art. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/119 "2014-09-10T01:27:54Z")
That’s ‘cause abstract art is a visual medium. You could be blind as a bat and still fully experience (for better or worse) 4’ 33", and as you will have noted from the various performances of 4’ 33", it does not depend on any particular visual presentation. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/120 "2014-09-10T02:14:11Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > My goodness. Yes, thank you. I’m perfectly aware that it’s possible for people to honestly enjoy something I think is crap. > > Here’s the thing. I think it’s great that they derive pleasure from such a situation, just as I think it’s great that I am permitted to Pit the steaming pile of pseudo-art known as " 4’33" ". > > And, just so we are all crystal-clear here: I’m not pitting what I saw in the video linked in my O.P. because I wanted to be an insulting jerk. You think I crossed the Don’t Be A Jerk line, then send a PM to the board Moderators reporting my O.P. But don’t go Junior-Modding, calling me a jerk when I was simply pitting something I deemed Pit-Worthy. > > I was in NO way attacking you for enjoying whatever it is you listen to or do not listen to. I was absolutely insulting the nitwits sitting there smugly, nodding knowingly, having listened to…exactly no music. > > P.S. I love abstract art. This…this…thing I linked wasn’t abstract art. You are contradicting yourself again. By making the declaration that it’s “pseudo-art”, a pretty much meaningless term, and calling those who actually understand and enjoy it “nitwits” and “smug”, it’s clear you do have a problem with people enjoying it. I’ll just remain content that my life is made a tiny bit better by the existence of 4’33’', as it is by any art I like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=7)