# I pit John Cage's " 4'33" " **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814 "2014-09-08T01:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/121 "2014-09-10T02:55:47Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > P.S. I love abstract art. This…this…thing I linked wasn’t abstract art. 4’ 33" is what abstract art would be if only it could be. [Gilles Neret:](http://books.google.ca/books?id=YbvaqgO81HcC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=%22Like+it+or+not,+it+is+difficult+for+abstract+art+to+maintain+an+abstract+existence.+Wholly+abstract+art+would+have+to+be+invisible:+an+empty+frame.%22&source=bl&ots=cxsV4NOVGo&sig=reH-reEaeoCMNWNbgYCh5XiseiU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8roPVJayMofygwTnqIL4DA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Like%20it%20or%20not%2C%20it%20is%20difficult%20for%20abstract%20art%20to%20maintain%20an%20abstract%20existence.%20Wholly%20abstract%20art%20would%20have%20to%20be%20invisible%3A%20an%20empty%20frame.%22&f=false) > [@](#): > > Like it or not, it is difficult for abstract art to maintain an abstract existence. Wholly abstract art would have to be invisible: an empty frame. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/122 "2014-09-10T03:59:19Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I was absolutely insulting the nitwits sitting there smugly, nodding knowingly, having listened to…exactly no music. You have no idea what they heard, thought, or experienced. Which is kind of the point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/123 "2014-09-10T04:08:11Z")
Mel Brooks, _The Critic_, 1963, will answer all relevant questions regarding abstract art. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/DiYjwRZK_NM/hqdefault.jpg "Mel Brooks The Critic") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiYjwRZK_NM) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/124 "2014-09-10T04:29:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Mel Brooks, _The Critic_, 1963, will answer all relevant questions regarding abstract art. > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiYjwRZK\_NM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiYjwRZK_NM) [QUOTE=Mel Brooks] I’m 71. I got a right to be loud, lady. I’m gonna die soon! [/QUOTE] One of my favorite lines (especially as I get older). ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/125 "2014-09-10T04:52:07Z")
I’m a fan of _4’33"_, and like all true fans, I think that the cure for not liking it can only be for the OP to listen to it more, until they admit they like it. And hey, at least it’s a versatile song. You can listen to it anywhere, anytime. Maybe **Cartooniverse** would like it more if they listened to it while another song they liked was playing on a car’s stereo while it drove down their street? ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/126 "2014-09-10T04:54:47Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > You think I crossed the Don’t Be A Jerk line, then send a PM to the board Moderators reporting my O.P. But don’t go Junior-Modding, calling me a jerk when I was simply pitting something I deemed Pit-Worthy. **The Hamster King** is not Junior-modding you or suggesting you’ve crossed any line regarding the Don’t Be a Jerk rule. There’s nothing reportable about your OP or any of your posts in this Thread. He’s just calling you a jerk. You could have opened a _4’33’’_ Thread in Café Society. In Café Society, you could have called _4’33’’_ bullshit. You could have made your Emperor’s Clothes accusations. You even could have said that people who sit through performances of it are poseurs or smugmuffins (so long as you weren’t directing the insults as specific posters). You chose, however, to open your _4’33’’_ Thread in the Pit. You did so because you deem it Pit-Worthy, which is valid. One consequence, though, of opening it in the Pit is that **The Hamster King** is allowed to call you a jerk. It’s the Pit, he’s allowed to call you far worse things than jerk. Feel free to open a _4’33’’_ Thread in Café Society if you don’t want anyone to call you a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/127 "2014-09-10T10:04:37Z")
I find this discussion completely offensive. There are tons of piano compositions for two hands, as well as a reasonable smattering of pieces written for the left or right hand. But somehow the ONE composition written for no hands has all of you polydactylic blatherskites up in arms. Handists. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/128 "2014-09-10T11:09:20Z")
We prefer the term " phalangists ". Muffin, the Giles Neret quote makes me think that in addition to an empty frame being abstract art, everything is abstract art. Applying the logic used by some in this thread regarding " 4’13" ", I don’t need an empty frame to look at abstract art. I walk down the street and bam - everything in my field of view is an immense construct. What could be more abstract. Why, I could sell tickets. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/129 "2014-09-10T11:18:03Z")
A. **NORWEGIAN BLACK METAL** B. 4’ 33" It all comes down to context. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/130 "2014-09-10T11:32:22Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Muffin, the Giles Neret quote makes me think that in addition to an empty frame being abstract art, everything is abstract art. > > Applying the logic used by some in this thread regarding " 4’13" ", I don’t need an empty frame to look at abstract art. I walk down the street and bam - everything in my field of view is an immense construct. What could be more abstract. Yes, you certainly could. I get the feeling you think this is some sort of gotcha, but it really isn’t. > [@](#): > > Why, I could sell tickets. 😉 You could try, and if people bought them, more power to you. As I’m quite capable of doing it by myself without buying a ticket, I’m not sure why I would, though. It’s certainly the case that, if I’m out walking, I will look for unintentional but interesting patterns in what I see. Pattern-finding, after all, is an absolutely fundamental human trait. There’s vast amounts of photography of interesting (to the photographer, if no-one else) but unintentional things, all you’re doing is - as you say - removing the frame. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/131 "2014-09-10T11:34:08Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > We prefer the term " phalangists ". > > Muffin, the Giles Neret quote makes me think that in addition to an empty frame being abstract art, everything is abstract art. > > Applying the logic used by some in this thread regarding " 4’13" ", I don’t need an empty frame to look at abstract art. I walk down the street and bam - everything in my field of view is an immense construct. What could be more abstract. > > Why, I could sell tickets. 😉 That is a good way to look at the world – observe it, think about it, move through it, be a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/132 "2014-09-10T12:43:11Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That is a good way to look at the world – observe it, think about it, move through it, be a part of it. Sell tickets to it. Buy tickets to it. Declare the ticket booths themselves to be art. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/133 "2014-09-10T12:49:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hans Christian Anderson. What an asshole. Word. Miracle he never got shanked. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/134 "2014-09-10T13:59:26Z")
No. I meant it sincerely. Pattern-finding is a human trait. Patter-making is in the purvey of God. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/135 "2014-09-10T14:27:40Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > Suck? > Blow?? > > Suck and blow, at the same time? Is it being played on harmonica? The concept is actually still pretty interesting but I would bet it’s tougher going these days because more people at younger ages have hearing loss from the effects of civilization and headphones. Hard to hear what’s between the notes and in the spaces when you don’t have the ability to pick up frequencies. I also note that there is a tendency among some musicians conservatory/classically trained to be really snobby and snotty about everything and non-classical forms of musical expression most of all. Musicians who come from other paths and have other ideas are often considered like dogshit on their shoe. The “avant-garde” and “performance art” in some form will always be with us. It can be great but it can be tedious too, as anyone who has sat watching someone fill a bathtub with machine parts can surely tell you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/136 "2014-09-10T14:31:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sell tickets to it. Buy tickets to it. Declare the ticket booths themselves to be art. This way to the egress. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/137 "2014-09-10T14:44:43Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > This way to the egress. Nowadays there’s a surcharge for that performance. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/138 "2014-09-10T15:10:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Nowadays there’s a surcharge for that performance. 😃 [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lAD6Obi7Cag/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AGOBIACkAOKAgwIABABGE8gSyhlMA8=&rs=AOn4CLDqz7KU9alJxbyNonajGEOyV2xHFw "Dire Straits - Money For Nothing music video (Good quality, all countries)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAD6Obi7Cag) ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/139 "2014-09-10T15:21:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I think what everybody in this thread mostly likes is arguing. No we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/140 "2014-09-10T15:44:29Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > I also note that there is a tendency among some musicians conservatory/classically trained to be really snobby and snotty about everything and non-classical forms of musical expression most of all. Musicians who come from other paths and have other ideas are often considered like dogshit on their shoe. This. Look, I grok what John Cage was doing. It’s no mystery to me. I just decry the posturing from the audience- and his assertion that lack of sound equals music. It doesn’t. It’s performance art. I didn’t mean to be snotty over the idea that his piece is a performance art item. Just that it’s presented and sold as music. It isn’t music. It’s something else. > [@](#): > > The “avant-garde” and “performance art” in some form will always be with us. It can be great but it can be tedious too, as anyone who has sat watching someone fill a bathtub with machine parts can surely tell you. 😃 No kidding. I’m quite fond of [The Sounds Made By The Universe.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAtgHMluJnM). We could file this thread under G.D. and debate if these are the sounds, collectively, of God. Or not. 😃 It’s kind of the ultimate performance art. Oh- and Unitarian services have nothing to do with Quaker Meeting for Worship. There is a leading and following to a degree in Unitarian services, at least the ones I have attended. There may be a sermon. I’ve attended Quaker Meeting in Philly on and off since birth. A real Quaker Meeting is held in absolute silence, only broken when a Friend rises to share a message that has come to them in their silence. While it is fair to say that many Friends arrive at Meeting on Sunday morning with a message phrased out in their head, this is not [Traditional Quaker Worship](http://www.quakerinfo.org/quakerism/worship). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=8)