# I pit John Cage's " 4'33" " **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814 "2014-09-08T01:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/141 "2014-09-10T15:48:00Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > No we don’t. Yes we do. ( d&r ) ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/142 "2014-09-10T16:15:42Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Nah, this this the same “Abstract art is a scam!” garbage that’s been popping up in Cafe Society for years. > > Basically there are a bunch of snobs (yourself included) who think that their aesthetic judgement trumps everyone else’s. So when they see a “smugmuffin” seeming to enjoy something that’s obviously “bullshit” they think that the “smugmuffin” can’t really be enjoying the “bullshit”. They’re just doing it to look cool, or smart, or sophisticated. They’re smirking poseurs. > > Here’s the thing. It’s possible for people to honestly enjoy something you think is crap. They’re not pretending to like it to make themselves look good or make you feel stupid. They really do like it, and when you act like their honest interest is just posturing, you’re being an insulting jerk. QFT. Come to think of it, where’s that guy? Don something? He drops in every few months with a link to some kinds of studies and tells us how bullshit modern art is. Last time there was even something about a rich guy on top of a building that was really, in its own way, performance art. I truly love this message board. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/143 "2014-09-10T16:22:45Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > This. Look, I grok what John Cage was doing. It’s no mystery to me. I just decry the posturing from the audience- and his assertion that lack of sound equals music. It doesn’t. It’s performance art. I didn’t mean to be snotty over the idea that his piece is a performance art item. Just that it’s presented and sold as music. It isn’t music. It’s something else. Different strokes for different folks. And your views can change in ways that you don’t always expect. Every time I think about music appreciation I am reminded of my 20-something year old self going to The Blue Note to hear a double-bill of jazz. I had friends on the second half of the program; the first half was piano player Cecil Taylor and his trio. Cecil came on stage, sat down, and starting tuning the ensemble. After a while it hit me that they had spent an awful long time tuning up. Then people applauded. What? A few years later I got to attend another Cecil Taylor performance. It was incredible and I loved what he did. Man’s a genius. What had changed? Me. Everything I had played/heard/absorbed in the years since that first concert made me hear things differently and I appreciated what I could not hear as music before. But your perception may vary. Mine certainly did. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/144 "2014-09-10T16:30:22Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Yes we do. Look, this isn’t an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/145 "2014-09-10T17:46:15Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Oh- and Unitarian services have nothing to do with Quaker Meeting for Worship. There is a leading and following to a degree in Unitarian services, at least the ones I have attended. There may be a sermon. > > I’ve attended Quaker Meeting in Philly on and off since birth. A real Quaker Meeting is held in absolute silence, only broken when a Friend rises to share a message that has come to them in their silence. While it is fair to say that many Friends arrive at Meeting on Sunday morning with a message phrased out in their head, this is not [Traditional Quaker Worship](http://www.quakerinfo.org/quakerism/worship). I was raised Quaker, and while unprogrammed worship is a very real thing, it is not and never was the only type of worship practiced by Friends. George Fox [gave many sermons](http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=410) throughout his life and ministry, as did John Woolman. From the [Mid America Yearly Meeting Faith & Practice](http://www.efcmaym.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/FP-PART-I.pdf) (PDF. And other yearly meetings will have their own F&P): > [@](#): > > Worship may be silent or vocal, taking various forms; it does not depend on certain ceremonies or traditions. Worship is a natural outgrowth of union with Christ and should be directed by His Spirit. > > The service of worship will usually include times of prayer, praise, and preaching. During public worship services we should also allow sufficient time for reflection, meditation, and decision. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/146 "2014-09-10T18:16:42Z")
> [@](#): > > During public worship services we should also allow sufficient time for reflection, meditation, and decision. Is 4’ 33" sufficient time? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/147 "2014-09-10T18:23:10Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Is 4’ 33" sufficient time? :smack: We had enough trouble fending off nuisance lawsuits from overzealous Quaker Oats lawyers.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/148 "2014-09-10T19:37:52Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I just decry the posturing from the audience- As I said before, you have way to know what the audience members were hearing, thinking, or experiencing, or any reason to believe that they were posturing in their reactions. This comes from your own need to feel superior to them for evidently enjoying something you don’t. You are the one who’s being a snob here, not them. Different members of the audience may be experiencing and enjoying the piece in different ways. Some of them are clearly appreciating it in a tongue in cheek way, as indicated when the conductor mops his brow. But pretending you know what the people in the audience are thinking is extremely arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/149 "2014-09-10T19:48:12Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > I was raised Quaker, and while unprogrammed worship is a very real thing, it is not and never was the only type of worship practiced by Friends. George Fox [gave many sermons](http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=410) throughout his life and ministry, as did John Woolman. > > From the [Mid America Yearly Meeting Faith & Practice](http://www.efcmaym.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/FP-PART-I.pdf) (PDF. And other yearly meetings will have their own F&P): Ignorance fought. I have never attended a Meeting where a sermon was “delivered”. Nor have I ever heard of a more modern Meeting where a sermon was "delivered. Then again, Quakerism has changed in some very fundamental ways since it first arrived, and there are [various… segments?.. of Quakerism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers_in_North_America). For example, the history and use of the Facing Bench. I sat down once in the Cornwall, New York Meetinghouse for First Day Meeting. ( Built in 1791, thankyouvermuch! ) and made the critical error of sitting on the floor-level[Facing Bench](http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~paxson/graphics-pax/NDMM-interior1.jpg) ( Example of the Facing Bench in a Meetinghouse. Not from Cornwall Friends Meeting ). Well. I’d never been Eldered by Quakers before, but after Meeting ended, whoooooo baby. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/150 "2014-09-10T20:01:21Z")
Calling ‘4’33’ a piece of music is like calling a blank sheet of paper a novel. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/151 "2014-09-10T21:00:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Calling ‘4’33’ a piece of music is like calling a blank sheet of paper a novel. Your opinion has been duly noted and registered with the proper authorities. Thanks so much for your feedback. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/152 "2014-09-10T21:31:26Z")
I pit the OP for his hatred of dwarf men. Your bigotry is vile and slanderous and you are what is wrong with you normies. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/153 "2014-09-10T23:00:42Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Bullshit, bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit; bullshit bullshit. Defecatory product of bovine males, bullshit bullshit bullshittyshit bullshit. So listen to [Ryoanji](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J3WpovGDtc) instead. Or perhaps [In A Landscape](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHyTXlejiEE). Believe or not, even great artists like Donny Osmond [occasionally produce a stinker](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMrcnqKSbw8). ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/154 "2014-09-10T23:20:14Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I pit the OP for his hatred of dwarf men. Your bigotry is vile and slanderous and you are what is wrong with you normies. I’d just like to point out that 4’33" is, in fact, six-foot-nine. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/155 "2014-09-10T23:43:43Z")
My favorite Cage composition remains his [Third Construction](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-9zcsv5bnI) for percussion ensemble. Definitely worth your time. I don’t have much more to add to such an invective-filled thread, but I will say that I think Cage’s 4’33" is a profoundly important piece for the 20th Century, and that it was inevitable. It’s also a piece that I enjoy very much, both in concept and practice. Also, if you want to understand why he wrote it, it’s important to note that what led to the piece’s composition came directly from Cage’s devout Zen Buddhism. For Cage, 4’33" was not a joke, or a put on, or a cynical attempt at notoriety, or anything like that at all, but rather was a spiritually necessary step for him to take as a Zen Buddhist composer. [Link to a book review](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/23/books/where-the-heart-beats-john-cage-biography-by-kay-larson.html) for more on this perspective. ETA\*In fact, Cage delayed presenting 4’33" to the public, for fear it would be taken as a joke, which it was not. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/156 "2014-09-10T23:50:44Z")
Actually, [this is a better performance](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-5xIJJgzmo) of Cage’s Third Construction. The previous one is incomplete, among other faults. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/157 "2014-09-11T02:46:16Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > And hey, at least it’s a versatile song. You can listen to it anywhere, anytime. Maybe **Cartooniverse** would like it more if they listened to it while another song they liked was playing on a car’s stereo while it drove down their street? Works great for mash-ups. > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > This. Look, I grok what John Cage was doing. It’s no mystery to me. I just decry the posturing from the audience- and his assertion that lack of sound equals music. I may be misunderstanding Cage’s intentions, but I really don’t think this is what he’s asserting. I really have no desire to attend a performance of this. My attention span isn’t that great (4+ minutes of “nothing” is really quite a long time). I get (and appreciate) what he’s trying to achieve, but I’m willing to skip the experience. But I, too, am baffled whenever anyone get so angry over a work of art they don’t appreciate. There’s too much stuff that I find moving in one way or another that to waste time on stuff I don’t really makes no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/158 "2014-09-11T12:08:13Z")
Well. I’m not sitting here, beet-faced with trembling rage. I OP’d this to call bullshit on what I truly see as a bullshit piece. Now, having read what **Knorf** was good enough to share, I must say I should re-evaluate my bullshit meter alarm. If this…this…thing is the outgrowth of a spiritual journey and was not created as a performance piece as much as a personal expression of the journey of Zen, then let’s all be quite clear. I’m not a hater of people’s religious journeys. Exactly the opposite. And if this is what inspired him to make it, then I hereby publicly walk back from the bullshit accusation and instead would say that it is what it is. That doesn’t mean that audience- there for all to see in the link I provided- gets a pass on what they did, how the reacted and so on. Similarly, that Conductor? -gag- ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/159 "2014-09-11T14:00:27Z")
What I love about the piece is that, with no musical training at all, I can play it perfectly! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/160 "2014-09-11T14:48:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > What I love about the piece is that, with no musical training at all, I can play it perfectly! I’d be interested to test that, actually. Would an audience, knowledgeable about classical music, be able to tell a concert pianist from someone with no training performing this piece? I’m inclined to say they would. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=9)