# I pit John Cage's " 4'33" " **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814 "2014-09-08T01:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/161 "2014-09-11T15:12:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’d be interested to test that, actually. Would an audience, knowledgeable about classical music, be able to tell a concert pianist from someone with no training performing this piece? I’m inclined to say they would. I’d be inclined to make you a bet about that, so long as the “performer” is dressed appropriately and can pose in a recognizable “ready” position at the keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/162 "2014-09-11T15:53:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’d be inclined to make you a bet about that, so long as the “performer” is dressed appropriately and can pose in a recognizable “ready” position at the keyboard. I’m not sure that someone who’s not trained, either as a musician or an actor, could pose like that in such a way as to convince knowledgeable people. It’s also a performance in 3 movements, that’s another thing the performer would have to show convincingly. I’m not sure enough to bet on it, but I’d certainly be interested in the result of such an experiment. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/163 "2014-09-11T16:27:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > More seriously, while I have no problem with the original performance of the piece and think it did what modern art does pretty well, I do find new performances of it totally eye-rolly. Whatever the original piece accomplished is already done. Re-performing it is like tearing another urinal off another wall and calling it art. Huh? Isn’t this the equivalent of someone framing a blank canvas and calling that art? I agree with the OP. This is crap. I can’t believe the audience felt an obligation to clap, and the smug look on the conductor is obnoxious. Like he actually did something special. Like without him, the performance wouldn’t have been up to snuff. And WTF is everyone bowing for? It would have been noteworthy only if someone in the orchestra blew a loud and long fart… This, followed by suppressed laughter, would have been worth something. I think. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/164 "2014-09-11T16:33:10Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Isn’t this the equivalent of someone framing a blank canvas and calling that art? Yes, it’s exactly that, and that would be art. Whether or not it’s good, meaningful, or interesting art is a matter for debate, but if the criticism of the artist and audience was anything like it is in this thread, it would be obnoxious and unwarranted, and would only prove that the commenter has no understanding of art. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/165 "2014-09-11T22:46:23Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > If this…this…thing is the outgrowth of a spiritual journey and was not created as a performance piece as much as a personal expression of the journey of Zen, then let’s all be quite clear. No, it’s definitely a piece that intended to be performed. \*\*Knorf \*\*was just pointing out that Cage was completely sincere. He wasn’t intending it as a put on or a joke. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean that audience- there for all to see in the link I provided- gets a pass on what they did, how the reacted and so on. Similarly, that Conductor? -gag- Last night I went to the launch event for the new vinyl analog remasters of the Beatles’ mono recordings. (They’re amazing, by the way, particular if you hear them on a $100,000 hifi system.) At one point someone started to clap during the long decay of the final note at the end of A Day in the Life. The audience shushed them – because everyone wanted to groove on the subtle nuances of a dying, barely audible echo. There are all sorts of listening experiences that people can have, and its presumptuous of you to assume that you know what the audience members in that video were experiencing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/166 "2014-09-11T23:13:59Z")
I could play it, long as it is in the people’s key of C. Only got the one harmonica. ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/167 "2014-09-11T23:33:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Hmm, I sort of hate to bring this to your attention, but… > > [_As Slow as Possible_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible) I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but just wanted to mention I actually was there for the most recent changing of the note, which is actually the last one for 7 years. It was pretty exciting. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/168 "2014-09-12T00:12:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’d be interested to test that, actually. Would an audience, knowledgeable about classical music, be able to tell a concert pianist from someone with no training performing this piece? I’m inclined to say they would. It seems to me that it would be utterly impossible. Find me a Doper who can honestly say they have attended a classical music concert where there was zero known about the performer. Absolutely zero. And they went anyway just to find out. I am not saying THEY didn’t know about the performer. I’m saying nobody in the entire house or management knew anything about the performer. It couldn’t be. And lacking that, how would you be able to put, say, me into a duck suit, have me walk out on stage, sit at a nice tasty Steinway M and not move for over four minutes- and have the audience give me a _standing ovation_ ??? It’d be neat to try. But I think impossible. Yes, yes, we all know about [Leonard Bernstein’s Young People’s Concerts](http://www.leonardbernstein.com/ypc.htm). Even in THAT setting, all of the management and other adults knew who was a performer. The children attending perhaps had not heard of the performers or music. That was the point of those brilliant concerts. No, I’m talking about filling, say, Avery Fischer with adults who know zero about the performer that evening and are perfectly all right with that biographical vacuum- and would then sit for over four minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/169 "2014-09-12T00:16:59Z")
> [@the hamster king](#): > > last night i went to the launch event for the new vinyl analog remasters of the beatles’ mono recordings. (they’re amazing, by the way, particular if you hear them on a $100,000 hifi system.) Jealous. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/170 "2014-09-12T05:56:03Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I’ve seen a performance of this. > > My brother’s a professional clarinetist; among other gigs he’s the founder of a chamber music group. They try to play more modern pieces as well as the classic repertoire. I’m not myself a huge fan of either genre but I make an effort to attend some gigs by way of showing support. At one such, they played 4’33. > > It was an interesting experience. The critical thing was that they treated it as a performance. It is, as noted, in 3 movements. At the beginning of each movement, they addressed, for want of a better word, their instruments: sitting up straight, with clarinet to mouth, violin under chin, bow on cello strings etc. Between movements, they rested their instruments and relaxed. The audience, surprisingly, responded to these cues in the way audiences do - e.g. all the coughing and seat rustling between movements that you’d normally expect, and very little while the musicians played. > > Reactions were varied. The violinist got the giggles. So did some but not all of the audience. I found the process of concentrating on the ambient sound (because I thought I might as well play along) difficult to sustain - it was as much as anything an exercise in concentration span. > > The really notable effect was that I paid much more attention to the subsequent pieces; my thoughts had been focused on the fact that I was here for a performance, that it was happening in a very particular set of circumstances and that the music I was hearing was very much intentional, artificial (in the best way) and unrepeatable: a collusion between composer, musicians, audience and the specific time and place. > > I wouldn’t queue up to hear it again, but it offered plenty to think about. I think you are spot on, it can induce a “listening” mode via a meditive state. I get it and wouldn’t be pissed off with 4 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/171 "2014-09-12T08:17:31Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > For Cage, 4’33" was **not a joke** , or a put on, or a cynical attempt at notoriety, or anything like that at all, but rather was a spiritually necessary step for him to take as a Zen Buddhist composer. [Link to a book review](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/23/books/where-the-heart-beats-john-cage-biography-by-kay-larson.html) for more on this perspective. > > ETA\ ***In fact, Cage delayed presenting 4’33" to the public, for fear it would be taken as a joke, which it was not.** > [@Colibri](#): > > Some of them are clearly appreciating it in a tongue in cheek way, as indicated when the conductor mops his brow. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > and the smug look on the conductor is obnoxious. Like he actually did something special. Like without him, the performance wouldn’t have been up to snuff. > > And WTF is everyone bowing for? > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Similarly, that Conductor? -gag- I’ve realised what’s going on here. It’s not the piece itself - it’s the performance. What you see in the OP’s link is a 4’33" _played badly_. The performers have really got the tone wrong. They’ve struck the wrong note. Their conception of the piece is out of harmony with the intent of the composer. It’s all rather discordant. If they’re basically treating it as a joke, then this is the equivalent of a ukulele arrangement of Ride of the Valkyries. Cute, but not really in the spirit of the music. Would any of the critics be interested in seeing 4’33" performed well? Or does the idea of good and bad performances seem impossible in this context? ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/172 "2014-09-12T08:29:10Z")
I couldn’t understand what the moron at the beginning\* was saying, so I closed the window. - - If I couldn’t understand him, why do I call him a moron? Good Question! Because he has lent his image and voice to an abomination - a hack job represented as art. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/173 "2014-09-12T08:48:54Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I’ve realised what’s going on here. It’s not the piece itself - it’s the performance. What you see in the OP’s link is a 4’33" _played badly_. > > The performers have really got the tone wrong. They’ve struck the wrong note. Their conception of the piece is out of harmony with the intent of the composer. It’s all rather discordant. > > If they’re basically treating it as a joke, then this is the equivalent of a ukulele arrangement of Ride of the Valkyries. Cute, but not really in the spirit of the music. > > Would any of the critics be interested in seeing 4’33" performed well? Or does the idea of good and bad performances seem impossible in this context? Well, assuming they were not actually making musical noises, in which case they were not playing the music badly, what this suggests is that 4’33" is not actually a musical work at all, but a theatrical one. If it can be performed badly, even though no inappropriate sound was made, what they got wrong was the _theatre_, not the music. Considered as theatre (or performance art, if you prefer) rather than music, the work actually makes a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/174 "2014-09-12T14:35:11Z")
Look, if you’re going to perform 4’33", for the sake of theatricality (and ALL live music has some theatrical component), you may as well go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/175 "2014-09-25T23:10:06Z")
You want theatre of the absurd and minimalist music? How about Erik Satie? Here’s Erik Satie’s [Chatopédies](http://youtu.be/nbQZcIIzgSA) performed by Buddy the World’s Friendliest Cat. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/176 "2014-09-27T23:50:17Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Bullshit, bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit; bullshit bullshit. Defecatory product of bovine males, bullshit bullshit bullshittyshit bullshit. Good rant, but, technically, it should be “… product of breedable bovine males” – don’t want to include steershit or calveshit here. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/177 "2014-09-28T00:11:31Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Good rant, but, technically, it should be “… product of breedable bovine males” – don’t want to include steershit or calveshit here. Whoa. I stand corrected. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/178 "2014-09-28T02:17:17Z")
Imagine turning on _America’s Got Talent_ and someone goes on stage and plays nothing for 4’33." The reaction is the piece. Classical aficionados won’t storm out because they understand how silence is vital to music. They also know that Cage did write some amazing stuff so he’s not just a hack. Your typical bandwagon-U2 fan won’t get the concept and demand a refund because in 2014 you’re entitled to 2-hours of nonstop visceral excitement or else you didn’t get your money’s worth. Welcome to the death of art everybody! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/179 "2014-09-28T04:00:05Z")
Back in the day, rock concerts never started on time, so 4’33" without music was nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814/180 "2014-10-24T07:07:21Z")
The internet reviewer Kyle Kallgren did a review of the movie [Blue](http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/teamt/oancitizen/brows-held-high/45176-blue) a little bit ago, which is similar to 4:33 in movie form. I think he did an excellent job of defending it and while I was never as critical of works like 4:33 (I find them kind of funny for one), it did give me a lot more appreciation for this sort of thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-john-cages-433/697814.md?page=10)