# I pit Judge Robert Brown **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433 "2011-12-08T00:28:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/1 "2011-12-08T00:28:38Z")
Not being used to drinking (was there any evidence of this) is one of the weakest mitigating factors I’ve heard for racial violence: > [@](#): > > Muslim women not used to drinking walk free after attack on woman > A gang of Somalian women who repeatedly kicked a young woman in the head walked free from court after a judge heard they were “not used to being drunk” because they were Muslim. > > Rhea Page and her partner Lewis Moore Photo: Hotspot Media12:20PM GMT 06 Dec 2011 > The four women - three sisters and their cousin - were told the charge of actual bodily harm, which carries a maximum sentence of five years, against 22-year-old care worker Rhea Page would normally land them in custody. > > However, the judge handed the women suspended sentences after hearing that they were not used to alcohol because their religion does not allow it. > > Miss Page said Ambaro Maxamed, 24, Ayan Maxamed, 28, and Hibo Maxamed, 24, and their 28-year-old cousin Ifrah Nur screamed “Kill the white slag” while kicking her in the head as she lay motionless on the ground. > > The support worker from Leicester was left “black and blue” with bruises and needed hospital treatment following the attack which came as she walked to a taxi rank with her boyfriend. > > Miss Page was left so traumatised by the attack that she lost her job due to repeated absences with stress and flashbacks… > Seventeen months on from the attack, which happened in Leicester city centre, she is still undergoing counselling and suffers from panic attacks and flashbacks. > > CCTV footage of the assault, which happened on June 18 last year, was shown in court. > > Sentencing, Judge Robert Brown said: “This was ugly and reflects very badly on all four of you. Those who knock someone to the floor and kick them in the head can expect to go inside, but I’m going to suspend the sentence.” > > He said he accepted the women may have felt they were the victims of unreasonable force from Miss Page’s partner Lewis Moore, 23, who tried desperately to defend her from the attack. > > During the hearing, James Bide-Thomas, prosecuting, said Ambaro Maxamed, who started the violence, had called Miss Page a “white bitch” during the incident. > > However, the women, who are all Somalian Muslims, were not charged with racial aggravation. > **[Muslim women not used to drinking walk free after attack on woman](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8937856/Muslim-women-not-used-to-drinking-walk-free-after-attack-on-woman.html)** > > A gang of Somalian women who repeatedly kicked a young woman in the head walked free from court after a judge heard they were "not used to being drunk" because they were Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/2 "2011-12-08T00:31:34Z")
This will end well. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/3 "2011-12-08T00:35:46Z")
Someone will say, “If the races were reversed…” and then it will turn into a hate crime discussion. And since \*\*Chen \*\*posted it, well. Either way, this shit sucks. The women were caught ON TAPE beating this woman and they get away with it because they were under the influence of alcohol? wtf. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/4 "2011-12-08T01:06:19Z")
Even a blind, dumb… VERY dumb, disgusting, loathsome racist pig… ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/5 "2011-12-08T01:21:52Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/6 "2011-12-08T01:29:55Z")
I’m guessing there’s a bit more to it than this. Provocation, maybe. They should certainly be in prison though. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/7 "2011-12-08T02:35:02Z")
Why are you guessing? Did you see the video? And since when does name calling or any alleged provocation call for a serious _beating_? If it were a white person who beat up the Muslim, would you say the same? 😕 Would I get the benefit of the doubt? It sounded like the women who beat the girl admitted to their error. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/8 "2011-12-08T03:19:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m guessing there’s a bit more to it than this. Provocation, maybe. They should certainly be in prison though. Yeah, I don’t know why you’d assume that. Parsimony, etc. Their own lawyer’s best effort was to say that it became self-defense (ridiculous, I know) **after** the victim’s boyfriend physically intervened, and that they had “overreacted” to his attempts to defend her (total BS, of course). Voluntary intoxication is never a defense to criminal liability under the common law and in most jurisdictions of which I know. The **only** distinction I can see here is the Judge entertaining (rather than throwing out) the defense theory about “cultural unfamiliarity with alcohol.” Everyone has a first drunk (and I’m not going to accept at face value the suggestion, which could hardly be proven, that this was the first or even tenth time these feral harpies tied one on). There’s no get out of jail free card for Gentiles with a low tolerance or limited boozing experience. Even allowing the suggestion to be made here was, indeed, very invidious, let alone apparently giving something approaching dispositive weight to the inappropriate defense theory. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/9 "2011-12-08T14:18:24Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Why are you guessing? Did you see the video? And since when does name calling or any alleged provocation call for a serious _beating_? Yes, I saw the video. It shows four indistinct figures beating up another indistinct figure. I am guessing because judges are generally not stupid, and “we aren’t used to alcohol” is a ridiculous defense. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/10 "2011-12-08T14:46:11Z")
Not only should they have been thrown in prison, they should have been specifically excluded from religious accomodations (halal food, etc) that are accorded to those who (unlike these drunks) do in fact practice Islam. Come to think of it, most religious accommodations in prison are absurd, being extended to people who wouldn’t **be** in prison if they gave a damn about obeying the rules of their respective faiths. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/11 "2011-12-08T14:59:21Z")
What? They don’t practice Islam because they got drunk? Are people kicked out of Christianity because they didn’t love their neighbor? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/12 "2011-12-08T15:17:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What? They don’t practice Islam because they got drunk? Er, you do realize that they have a religious prohibition against alcohol, right? That this fact was central to the idiotic “defense” cited in the OP? Well, if they can break that rule, I don’t see why the taxpayers should go to extra expense so they don’t have to break the rule against mystery meat that may or may not contain pork byproducts. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/13 "2011-12-08T15:22:57Z")
Of course I realize that. Every adherent of every faith has broken some of the applicable rules. So what? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/14 "2011-12-08T15:33:23Z")
The judge acted perfectly properly. The women accepted that they did in fact attack the woman and did so at the first real opportunity. They were in fact intoxicated. They all seem to have no previous convictions. All of these are real mitigating circumstances under English law and the current sentencing council guidelines prescribe a community sentence as opposed to a custodial one n circumstances as this. You can argue those guidelines are wrong or that there should be mandatory imprisonment in cases like this but blaming the judge seems far fetched as if he had acted in the way many want, the decision would have been appealed and most likely thrown out. Huerta88 seems to have mixed up culpability with mitigation. FinLly, please this is the Daily Torygraph. Not exactly Daily Mail levels but close enough when talking about crime. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/15 "2011-12-08T15:38:00Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Even a blind, dumb… VERY dumb, disgusting, loathsome racist pig… They weren’t used to eating pork either. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/16 "2011-12-08T15:44:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The judge acted perfectly properly. The women accepted that they did in fact attack the woman and did so at the first real opportunity. They were in fact intoxicated. They all seem to have no previous convictions. All of these are real mitigating circumstances under English law and the current sentencing council guidelines prescribe a community sentence as opposed to a custodial one n circumstances as this. You can argue those guidelines are wrong or that there should be mandatory imprisonment in cases like this but blaming the judge seems far fetched as if he had acted in the way many want, the decision would have been appealed and most likely thrown out. _Voluntary_ intoxication is a mitigating factor in English law? That seems… odd. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/17 "2011-12-08T16:21:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Voluntary_ intoxication is a mitigating factor in English law? That seems… odd. It is a mitigating factor for determining quantum of sentence not for determining mens rea and culpability unless the offence is one of specific intent (meaning requires intentions as opposed to recklessness). In this case the mitigating factor was with respect to Quantum of sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal\_Heresy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Liberal\_Heresy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal_Heresy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/18 "2011-12-12T20:41:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The judge acted perfectly properly. The women accepted that they did in fact attack the woman and did so at the first real opportunity. They were in fact intoxicated. They all seem to have no previous convictions. All of these are real mitigating circumstances under English law and the current sentencing council guidelines prescribe a community sentence as opposed to a custodial one n circumstances as this. You can argue those guidelines are wrong or that there should be mandatory imprisonment in cases like this but blaming the judge seems far fetched as if he had acted in the way many want, the decision would have been appealed and most likely thrown out. In which circumstances in particular AK, just those that you have outlined? I have just looked up some of the sentencing guidelines that are available online and while previously unfamiliar with these procedures this does not appear to be a case that would seem to be at the lower end of the scale which would thereby recieve a non-custodial sentence. I used sentencing guideline outlines that are available online (see links at the bottom) They discuss a range of tests: culpability, harm, aggravating features, mitigating features and the custody threshold. Let’s see what they are and how they relate. Firstly **culpability** : “(i)has the intention to cause harm, with the highest culpability when an offence is planned. The worse the harm intended, the greater the seriousness. (ii) is reckless as to whether harm is caused, that is, where the offender appreciates at least some harm would be caused but proceeds giving no thought to the consequences even though the extent of the risk would be obvious to most people. (iii) has knowledge of the specific risks entailed by his actions even though he does not intend to cause the harm that results. (iv) is guilty of negligence.” On (i) this must be a yes. ‘Planned’ itself is arguable though, depending on how such things are decided. As a group they obviously agreed among themselves that they would attack this young lady. They then did so. (ii) They attacked her repeatedly for 13 minutes, they even put in the last couple of blows after the police van had arrived. (iii) No-one can attack someone so relentlessly, kicking and punching them in the head on the ground and not be aware of the specific risks of doing so. (iv) ? pass So on the first measure they hit at least 3 of four tests of culpability, though perhaps as mentioned it may not have been planeed if by this it means cold and calculatingly discussed it in any detail before setting out. **Harm** Of the types of harm outlined in the sentencing tests (see links below) the young lady experienced physical injury, financial loss (employment), damage to health and psychological distress. It would seem on the additional measure of societal harm this may well apply too: “Some conduct is criminalised purely by reference to public feeling or social mores. In addition, public concern about the damage caused by some behaviour, both to individuals and to society as a whole” “Harm must always be judged in the light of culpability…The culpability of the offender in the particular circumstances of an individual case should be the initial factor in determining the seriousness of an offence.” They were culpable on three of four measures. They occasioned harm in a number of ways to the victim and therefore this seems to fall into the category of ‘serious’. **Aggravating Factors** Offence was racially or religiously aggravated : YES Offenders operating in groups or gangs: YES Commission of an offence while under the influence of alcohol or drugs: YES An especially serious physical or psychological effect on the victim, even if unintended: YES A sustained assault or repeated assaults on the same victim: YES **Mitigating factors** A greater degree of provocation than normally expected: NO Mental illness or disability: NO Youth or age, where it affects the responsibility of the individual defendant: NO The fact that the offender played only a minor role in the offence: NO Reduction for a guilty plea: YES Although who knows whether they pleaded guilty to avoid the racially aggravated element being included a an add-on to the charge. **The Custody Threshold** 1.31 Section 152(2) Criminal Justice Act 2003: “The court must not pass a custodial sentence unless it is of the opinion that the offence, or the combination of the offence and one or more offences associated with it, was so serious that neither a fine alone nor a community sentence can be justified for the offence.” Nature of failure and harm: The custody threshold normally passed where two or more aggravating factors indicting higher culpability are present Starting Point: Custody In the examples that they give most where declared have recived a custodial sentence. These young Somali ladies drunkenly attack a young woman as a group repeatedly over a period of around 13 minutes, racially and sexually (‘slag’) abuse her, kick and punch her on the floor and after the court case when asked about remorse do not express any. This seems to me to be a crime that should be considered ‘serious’ that also has many aggravating factors and reflects very badly on the professional judgement of Judge Robert Brown. Sources I looked at [here](http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing/sentences-worked-out.htm) and [here](http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/web_seriousness_guideline.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal\_Heresy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Liberal\_Heresy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal_Heresy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/19 "2011-12-12T21:24:41Z")
In retrospect perhaps I would leave out point ii) on culpability. While philosophically a case might be made both for intending to harm & acting recklessly, perhaps the legal process might not recognise both. Tried to amend but the system here is quite strict I find,which is a shame as I tend to hit ‘enter’ and then do a couple of quick edits. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433/20 "2011-12-13T02:00:40Z")
If you imagine the most offensive racist and anti-Muslim insults you can and then imagine the girl shouting them at the Somali girls, it still doesn’t justify that attack. The bitches need to be behind bars for a long time. If this were the U.S. and they were not citizens I’d favor deportation as well. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-judge-robert-brown/605433.md?page=2)