# I Pit Lack of Finacial Aid for my Kid's College Education! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068 "2011-06-02T07:10:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/421 "2011-06-17T17:04:34Z")
Or that it will, indeed, grab your ass. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/422 "2011-06-17T18:08:02Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I grew up in a town with 90% of the people on welfare, and a mayor who openly bragged about trying to get as much federal and state grant money as possible regardless of whether or not that money was paying for anything useful or desired. Clarification: Are people on welfare because they can’t get jobs? Growing up, I remembered watching the economy in the industrial states getting clobbered as the steel mills were being outsourced over to Japan. Blue-collar workers were main group affected at the time. I presume welfare was the only means of survival back then, and given the lack of benefits (e. g., health insurance) of a service job, the incentive to lose those benefits might cause one to hesitate to get a job. Or is it something else? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/423 "2011-06-17T18:10:03Z")
> [@echo6160](#): > > Remind me again - why are you trying to draw a comparison between us? 😕 I’m trying _not_ to lump you two together, which is why I’m still waiting to see a difference. However, since you have been constantly defensive and are now “exiting the thread” due to, I guess, my confusion over the difference between you and the OP, I’m beginning to think there is no difference. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/424 "2011-06-17T18:26:53Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I think we might be talking about different things here, somehow. I don’t for a minute believe we should willy-nilly send everyone to college, nor do I believe that people who fail to meet academic qualifications should be given subsidies. Oh! Well, that puts a new slant on it. I really did think that your idea was that anyone who wanted to go to college should be able to, one the taxpayer. Back to the OP - do you support having the taxpayer send her? > [@](#): > > Aside from the idea that somehow you expect that illegal immigrants are going to be able to apply to college and use these funds, which is what your first two sentences seem to imply. I’m not arguing that illegal immigrants cost your state money (they do), I’m arguing that they’re unlikely in the extreme to be costing you money for higher education costs. Heh, illegals can do pretty much anything they want to here, unless/until they get caught that is. For example, the company that used to mow our lawn had a TIN number and everything, yet it turned out that the owner and all the employees were illegals, and the got deported. However, it is more what they used to call their anchor babies that will most likely be going to college. > [@](#): > > I don’t see our population as being all that significantly more variable than Europe’s, and I don’t see what climate has to do with politics. I mean wide variations in population densities - there are fewer people living in the state of Montana than the city of Los Angeles. Everything has to do with politics, because it is politics that drives our goods and services. If you are trying to have just state governments, how is Montana going to be able to afford to maintain their roads, with their low population and their gawdawful weather? > [@](#): > > Because it was all legal and correct, just…stupid. The most recent one was getting a Interior grant to improve our local waterways to the tune of a few million. Our “local waterway” is a single creek I can jump over without exerting myself at any point between spring and where it dumps into the West Branch, but because it is TECHNICALLY part of the Chesapeake watershed, there’s money for it. So we ended up with a few culvert bridges being out of service for months to be redone, at great inconvenience to pretty much everyone, and the mayor brags about that money being points on her “scorecard”. Oh hell, that happens everywhere. In my city, funds go to, say, fix the roads where there are businesses more often than where the poor folk live. A place I used to live, a major road was blown out in a flood and was still unrepaired two years later when I left, despite other, less needed, road work being done in that county. Politicians lie and have only their own needs in mind. > [@](#): > > I paid to go to a four year college to get THIS degree, so. It’s a return-on-investment calculation. You went into IT for the money? > [@](#): > > Ugh, bonds. Bond issues should be limited to major capital improvements IMHO. At least they’re mostly opt-in. Why do you say they’re mostly opt-in? As far as I can tell, I’m stuck with them. > [@](#): > > The problem is how to create appropriate incentives. Bro taught in a broke DC suburb for his first few years–if you tried to tax those parents directly to pay for education, half of them would have deadbeated out of it They don’t have jobs? > [@](#): > > and they’d all have pushed back on the system so hard it would have gotten worse. Where he is now (rural PA), that might be effective, but he’s got other problems there of a party-agnostic nature (jerks on the school board who’ve got a $5mil+ slush fund but who won’t lower property taxes, preferring to pay for ad campaigns to demonize the teacher’s union request for a typical inflation raise). Which is why I don’t want to give those folks even more money! However, I was talking about parents getting involved in their kid’s schoolwork. Even the worse schooling can be made decent in the parents help with homework, buy supplies, etc. > [@](#): > > Let’s just say, as the guy responsible for sourcing new equipment for both our contractor division and our commercial division, we have the exact opposite thing going on. The government pays us fairly and on time, we get exactly 7% profit over what we can prove we expended on government projects with a yearly audit, and any equipment even partially paid for by contracts has to be bought at contract end with a payback to the contracting agency. The commercial side, by contrast, is rife with wheeling and dealing and generally has far more budget per person to play with. Sounds like the government got a better contract with you all than with Kaiser. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/425 "2011-06-17T18:29:41Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Welcome, brother. I know it was rough, but it’s something we all go through with **curlcoat**. Bitch, **echo** got the same thing from other as he did from me. Your one interest bias is showing. > [@vivalostwages](#): > > This is for everyone: > > Many scholarship, grant, and other monies go unclaimed and unused for three reasons: > > 1. People are not aware of them or have not searched everything. > 2. Some assume they are not eligible for anything and never apply. > 3. Some are not willing to do the paperwork. > > I am not making an accusation of anyone here, just pointing out some facts. > There are bizarro scholarships out there for left-handed folks, very tall people, and there’s even a Klingon scholarship of some kind. Also, individual campuses may have their own scholarship events and fundraisers going on at any given time. > Just sayin’. But do they pay the whole freight? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/426 "2011-06-17T18:32:04Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > Clarification: Are people on welfare because they can’t get jobs? Growing up, I remembered watching the economy in the industrial states getting clobbered as the steel mills were being outsourced over to Japan. Blue-collar workers were main group affected at the time. I presume welfare was the only means of survival back then, and given the lack of benefits (e. g., health insurance) of a service job, the incentive to lose those benefits might cause one to hesitate to get a job. Or is it something else? In this case, it was the coal mines going tits-up, but even jobs that pay below the benefit threshold (like, say, part-time cashier at my dad’s general store–willing to hire you for anything from 10 to 40 hours a week, guaranteed raises every year, job’s been sitting empty for three years now) aren’t getting filled. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/427 "2011-06-17T18:41:39Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Oh! Well, that puts a new slant on it. I really did think that your idea was that anyone who wanted to go to college should be able to, one the taxpayer. Back to the OP - do you support having the taxpayer send her? A motivated straight-A student looking at a cutting-edge science degree? She keeps a 3.0 GPA or better, I’m all for it. Hell, I’d go to a 2.5, since that seemed to be the standard for private scholarships when I went to college. > [@](#): > > Heh, illegals can do pretty much anything they want to here, unless/until they get caught that is. For example, the company that used to mow our lawn had a TIN number and everything, yet it turned out that the owner and all the employees were illegals, and the got deported. However, it is more what they used to call their anchor babies that will most likely be going to college. I’m not actually sure I have a problem with anchor babies getting citizen benefits. That’s a debate for another thread, too. > [@](#): > > I mean wide variations in population densities - there are fewer people living in the state of Montana than the city of Los Angeles. Everything has to do with politics, because it is politics that drives our goods and services. If you are trying to have just state governments, how is Montana going to be able to afford to maintain their roads, with their low population and their gawdawful weather? I’m not opposed to state and Federal interaction, I’m saying I think the Germany example is relevant because I don’t think it matters what government level implements things. Schooling is roughly proportional to population in a way that many things are not, so it makes sense to move it local. > [@](#): > > You went into IT for the money? In 1997 that didn’t seem as bad an idea as it does now. Doesn’t matter, I can basically write my own check these days. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Why do you say they’re mostly opt-in? As far as I can tell, I’m stuck with them. If no one wants to buy a bond issue, there is no money. It’s not like taxes in that no one is forced to buy bonds if there is a desire to raise money without raises taxes. > [@](#): > > They don’t have jobs? \'s cost of living is 27% more than the national average. Since 2005, \ jobs have decreased by 6% per year. > [@](#): > > Which is why I don’t want to give those folks even more money! > > However, I was talking about parents getting involved in their kid’s schoolwork. Even the worse schooling can be made decent in the parents help with homework, buy supplies, etc. I don’t like the “buy supplies” part. I see that used too often as a stick by corrupt administrators against teachers–my bro’s district, again, proposed a contract that included raises but obligated teachers to pay for their classroom’s first $5000 worth of supplies (for both teachers and students) out-of-pocket. That’s like asking me to bring my own computer and printer paper to my office job, and that’s idiotic. > [@](#): > > Sounds like the government got a better contract with you all than with Kaiser. 😃 For all its faults, if the government ran every contract like DoD SBIR contracts we’d be a lot better off. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/428 "2011-06-17T21:22:47Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > There are bizarro scholarships out there for left-handed folks, very tall people, and there’s even a Klingon scholarship of some kind. Also, individual campuses may have their own scholarship events and fundraisers going on at any given time. > Just sayin’. Just for the record, here’s the straight dope on [left-handed scholarships](http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/unusual.phtml). > [@](#): > > The only scholarship for left-handed students is the Frederick and Mary F. Beckley Scholarship of up to $1,000. This scholarship is awarded to left-handed students who will be attending Juniata College. This scholarship is only available to students who are enrolled at Juniata College. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/429 "2011-06-18T01:35:13Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > In this case, it was the coal mines going tits-up, but even jobs that pay below the benefit threshold (like, say, part-time cashier at my dad’s general store–willing to hire you for anything from 10 to 40 hours a week, guaranteed raises every year, job’s been sitting empty for three years now) aren’t getting filled. Do you know why? > [@Zeriel](#): > > A motivated straight-A student looking at a cutting-edge science degree? She keeps a 3.0 GPA or better, I’m all for it. Hell, I’d go to a 2.5, since that seemed to be the standard for private scholarships when I went to college. 😕 Isn’t a 3.0 a B average and 2.5 a C+? Also, are you saying that your idea of government funded college would be dependent on the student keeping a certain GPA? > [@](#): > > I’m not actually sure I have a problem with anchor babies getting citizen benefits. That’s a debate for another thread, too. Perhaps. However, it does seriously impact the state’s ability to maintain our state colleges when we get students whose parents have paid zip into the system. > [@](#): > > I’m not opposed to state and Federal interaction, I’m saying I think the Germany example is relevant because I don’t think it matters what government level implements things. Schooling is roughly proportional to population in a way that many things are not, so it makes sense to move it local. Oh. Then I’m lost. Go back and tell me again - what is it that Germany is doing regarding their schools? > [@](#): > > In 1997 that didn’t seem as bad an idea as it does now. Doesn’t matter, I can basically write my own check these days. 🙂 How common do you think it is that people go to college and get a degree in something merely because they know it will lead to a high paying job? > [@](#): > > If no one wants to buy a bond issue, there is no money. It’s not like taxes in that no one is forced to buy bonds if there is a desire to raise money without raises taxes. Perhaps I used the wrong word. What is it called when something is put on a ballot to be voted on, which if it passes will provide money for the local schools? Usually by adding to an existing tax. > [@](#): > > \'s cost of living is 27% more than the national average. Since 2005, \ jobs have decreased by 6% per year. Ah. Not sure that \ is such a good example then. > [@](#): > > I don’t like the “buy supplies” part. I see that used too often as a stick by corrupt administrators against teachers–my bro’s district, again, proposed a contract that included raises but obligated teachers to pay for their classroom’s first $5000 worth of supplies (for both teachers and students) out-of-pocket. I think _the parents_ should be buying supplies, but the ones that a school shouldn’t be expected to provide. Its been so freaking long since I’ve been to school, but back then such things would be calculators and computers. Things that would help their children go at least a little beyond the basics that the school is providing, so they can make the absolute best of the education they are getting. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/430 "2011-06-18T02:33:36Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Do you know why? I have theories. Most of them involve alcohol. Some of them involve idiocy/pride–my dad (back in the day when coal was booming) could only hire older housewives working for pocket money–so the mindset in the town is that “only old ladies work there”. Some of them involve the discontinuities involved in welfare–you can’t get a full-time job without losing heathcare assistance, but my dad doesn’t have enough employees to offer group healthcare at anything like a competitive rate, and a lot of guys broken down from years working strip mines aren’t interested in having more cash but worse health insurance. > [@](#): > > 😕 Isn’t a 3.0 a B average and 2.5 a C+? Also, are you saying that your idea of government funded college would be dependent on the student keeping a certain GPA? Yes, absolutely–I’m in favor of government-funded education, not government-funded dicking around in a dorm smoking weed. > [@](#): > > Perhaps. However, it does seriously impact the state’s ability to maintain our state colleges when we get students whose parents have paid zip into the system. Still, when those students graduate, they’re US Citizens, educated, and staying here. They’re going to pay into the system all their lives. > [@](#): > > Oh. Then I’m lost. Go back and tell me again - what is it that Germany is doing regarding their schools? Up until recently, they were funding college tuition pretty much completely for public schools–Federally mandated, funded on a per-state basis. The Federal mandate ended, so some of the states (5 of the 16, IIRC) are now merely subsidizing college tuition rather than offering it free. As I propose above, entrance is based on passing qualifying examinations and maintaining good scholarship. Additionally, the Federal government there offers a need-based stipend to cover books and some living expenses, half a payment and half an interest-free loan, amounting to around 650Euro/month. > [@](#): > > How common do you think it is that people go to college and get a degree in something merely because they know it will lead to a high paying job? When I went to college, I’d say 50%+ of my social group were getting a degree with a career in mind, and probably 75%+ of my peers in engineering and business colleges (discrepancy due to my being in the honors college with a lot of medieval studies and artsy-fartsy majors). > [@](#): > > Perhaps I used the wrong word. What is it called when something is put on a ballot to be voted on, which if it passes will provide money for the local schools? Usually by adding to an existing tax. That’s just a referendum, isn’t it? A bond issue is where they put out what essentially amounts to a short/medium-term treasury bond in specific numbers, to cover the up-front costs of a specific project. > [@](#): > > I think _the parents_ should be buying supplies, but the ones that a school shouldn’t be expected to provide. Its been so freaking long since I’ve been to school, but back then such things would be calculators and computers. Things that would help their children go at least a little beyond the basics that the school is providing, so they can make the absolute best of the education they are getting. Again, I’m leery of anything that is going to rely on the parents actually giving a shit, until we can figure out how to make them do so. Anything NECESSARY for the curriculum as designed should be school-provided, IMHO. Incidentally, one of the few positive things regarding the budget fights that I’ve been seeing, at least in PA, is that support/admin staff are starting to get hired on the basis of “actually knows what they’re doing” rather than “related to a school board member”. This has primarily resulted in a marked increase in the last five years in the quality of school technology spending. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068/431 "2011-06-19T02:44:57Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I have theories. Most of them involve alcohol. Some of them involve idiocy/pride–my dad (back in the day when coal was booming) could only hire older housewives working for pocket money–so the mindset in the town is that “only old ladies work there”. Some of them involve the discontinuities involved in welfare–you can’t get a full-time job without losing heathcare assistance, but my dad doesn’t have enough employees to offer group healthcare at anything like a competitive rate, and a lot of guys broken down from years working strip mines aren’t interested in having more cash but worse health insurance. Sounds like other than the alcohol thing (which is itself idiocy), the answers are all in misplaced pride. If your dad is offering part time work, these guys to do it without losing their health care. > [@](#): > > Yes, absolutely–I’m in favor of government-funded education, not government-funded dicking around in a dorm smoking weed. What about government-funded education of poor students? (Poor in the sense of not getting good grades in high school) > [@](#): > > Still, when those students graduate, they’re US Citizens, educated, and staying here. They’re going to pay into the system all their lives. Perhaps. Or they could end up following their parents’ examples and send most of their money to Mexico. Besides, we have yet to reach a point when they outnumber the new illegals staggering across the border to “bless” up with another anchor baby. > [@](#): > > Up until recently, they were funding college tuition pretty much completely for public schools–Federally mandated, funded on a per-state basis. The Federal mandate ended, so some of the states (5 of the 16, IIRC) are now merely subsidizing college tuition rather than offering it free. On other words, Germany found out that they cannot afford to federally fund all public colleges? > [@](#): > > When I went to college, I’d say 50%+ of my social group were getting a degree with a career in mind, and probably 75%+ of my peers in engineering and business colleges (discrepancy due to my being in the honors college with a lot of medieval studies and artsy-fartsy majors). But, how many of them _enjoyed_ whatever it was they would be needing to do in their proposed careers? > [@](#): > > That’s just a referendum, isn’t it? A bond issue is where they put out what essentially amounts to a short/medium-term treasury bond in specific numbers, to cover the up-front costs of a specific project. Dunno. Whatever it is that all the liberals vote for because it’s for teh children. > [@](#): > > Again, I’m leery of anything that is going to rely on the parents actually giving a shit, until we can figure out how to make them do so. Anything NECESSARY for the curriculum as designed should be school-provided, IMHO. I agree with that, what I am talking about is parents needing to get out of the mindset that the school does it all, and back to helping with homework, buying extra gadgets that will help their kid excel, etc. For example, if I - god forbid - had a kid in our local public schools, I’d be monitoring their homework daily, working on the computer with them, taking them on field trips, etc because our schools are so mired in teaching kids English that they are doing a crappy job of everything else. I would not be leaving my kid’s education to just the schools. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, one of the few positive things regarding the budget fights that I’ve been seeing, at least in PA, is that support/admin staff are starting to get hired on the basis of “actually knows what they’re doing” rather than “related to a school board member”. This has primarily resulted in a marked increase in the last five years in the quality of school technology spending. I have no idea if any of that is going on locally - the papers blame NCLB and it seems to make sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lack-of-finacial-aid-for-my-kids-college-education/584068.md?page=21)