# I Pit LHOD and his thread re: AA in schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658 "2009-06-04T02:59:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/261 "2009-06-09T19:10:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > OK, I’ll do it. Mswas, Cisco and Bricker\* are positing that the black male teacher is playing the role of “role model for young black boys.” Therefore, hiring a black male teacher is not an example of affirmative action, it is an example of hiring the only person qualified for the job. It’s like trying to find an actor to play Michael Jordan–it only makes sense to hire a black male, and hiring a black male to play Michael Jordan is not an example of affirmative action. > > I argued that the two situations are not analogous for the following two reasons: > > (1) It is not necessarily the case that the only person that can be a role model for a black boy is a black male. Therefore, finding a teacher to be a role model for black boys has not been proven to be the same as finding an actor to play Michael Jordan. It could very well be the case that a white male or a black woman or a white woman could also serve as a role model for black boys. Yes, I suppose it’s possible. And it’s not clear to me how one might go about showing, empirically, the efficacy of different role models, so this discussion may lack a laser-like precision. However, arguing merely from the “it makes sense to me” camp: one key purpose served by a role model is to show, by example, that certain achievements are possible. Now, if a young black student sees that the vast majority of successful, job-holding, accomplished people in his life are not black, he may well internalize a belief that there’s something about success and jobs and accomplishments that eludes people with his skin tone. It is for this reason that I postulate a successful, job-holding, accomplished black man as a role model – by his mere presence he communicates the message that success and jobs and accomplishments are within the reach of a black man. > [@](#): > > (ii) A teacher isn’t just someone playing the role of a role model. Rather, a teacher also, well, teaches. Therefore, finding a teacher involves more than just finding a role model for the kids. So, to the extent that only a black male could be a role model for black boys, finding a teacher is not analogous to finding a black actor because the teacher must do more than just be black and male–they have to teach. Agreed. No one is suggesting that the teaching requirements be vitiated. Indeed, we could return to our acting analogy and point out that the successful actor must not only be black to play MJ: he must be able to act, and he must be able to move on the basketball court well enough to portray MJ’s skill in that area. So, too, with teaching: the successful role model is chosen because he can teach _and_ be a living witness to African-American success. Those two requirements are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/262 "2009-06-09T19:21:01Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So you got nothing. Why am I not surprised? OK, I admit it. ☹ You found me out. ☹ I thought everyone would be impressed with my supposed chess prowess. However, now that glee has called me out, I must admit that I am unable to produce any games to prove my claims regarding same. After glee’s post challenging my claim, I hoped that everyone would just forget about it (which is why I attempted to deflect criticism by making a further claim), but you, Contrapuntal, had the guts and sheer balls to stay in my face about it. I can no longer hold up under your crushing onslaught. I am forced to admit that I have never played a game of chess in my life, don’t even own a chess board, and don’t even know the rules of the game. Damn you, Contrapuntal! Damn you straight to hell! The next time I decide to impress people with lies regarding my abilities I hope I remember your dogged persistence and am able to avoid the lowly and agonizing position in which I currently find myself. I throw myself upon your mercy. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/263 "2009-06-09T19:25:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Damn you, Contrapuntal! Damn you straight to hell! The next time I decide to impress people with lies regarding my abilities I hope I remember your dogged persistence and am able to avoid the lowly and agonizing position in which I currently find myself. I throw myself upon your mercy. Really like that low hanging fruit, dontcha? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/264 "2009-06-09T19:46:27Z")
[Barry Manilow] _At the Capa, the Capablanca…you pushed that pawn, you dork, and now your bishop’s forked!.._ [/BM] ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/265 "2009-06-10T02:09:50Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s the spot where your semantic train derailed and started its short but quick transition into a logical scrap heap. A lone, flaming wheel escapes the wreckage, as tradition dictates. That lone, flaming wheel must have been made out of Rearden metal. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/266 "2009-06-10T02:14:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I suppose it’s possible. And it’s not clear to me how one might go about showing, empirically, the efficacy of different role models, so this discussion may lack a laser-like precision. However, arguing merely from the “it makes sense to me” camp: . . . which, of course, is one of the aspects of this issue that’s got me riled. Instituting a policy of racial discrimination should not be done on the basis that it makes sense to you (or LHOD). > [@](#): > > one key purpose served by a role model is to show, by example, that certain achievements are possible. Now, if a young black student sees that the vast majority of successful, job-holding, accomplished people in his life are not black, he may well internalize a belief that there’s something about success and jobs and accomplishments that eludes people with his skin tone. And he may well not. > [@](#): > > It is for this reason that I postulate a successful, job-holding, accomplished black man as a role model – by his mere presence he communicates the message that success and jobs and accomplishments are within the reach of a black man. OK, fine. 1. You haven’t shown that \*teachers \*act as role models. I’m sure it “makes sense” to you that a teacher is a role model, but it’s not necessarily the case. I hated most of my teachers growing up (because, as a super genius, I was smarter than almost all of them . . . PUT TOGETHER!!!). 2. Barack Obama (case closed!). 3. You have proved too much–why should not every employer be mandated to preferentially hire and promote racial minorities? If society’s goal is to show young minorities that they can be successful, then let’s get it going here, people. 4. You are ignoring the possibility that (i) the black boys will know that the black male teachers were hired through an affirmative action program, (ii) which causes the black boys to believe that a black man can’t get a job unless the employer has a preferential hiring policy, (iii) which causes them to feel like real turds. (Hey, if you and LHOD can postulate about the psychology of the typical black boy, I sure can too.) > [@](#): > > Agreed. No one is suggesting that the teaching requirements be vitiated. Indeed, we could return to our acting analogy and point out that the successful actor must not only be black to play MJ: he must be able to act, and he must be able to move on the basketball court well enough to portray MJ’s skill in that area. So, too, with teaching: the successful role model is chosen because he can teach _and_ be a living witness to African-American success. Those two requirements are not mutually exclusive. So John is a black male who wants to teach and would be a good teacher. You think the schools need some sort of new affirmative action hiring policy regarding black male teachers to get John to teach there? He wants to teach and has the ability to do so. The dude’s gonna teach! Fred, another black male, doesn’t want to teach, but he would be good at it if he wanted to. Sam, another black male, does want to teach and would be horrible at it. Rick, another black male, doesn’t want to teach and would be horrible at it. These are the guys that LHOD’s policy will hire as teachers. I guess Fred may be OK, but his heart’s not in it, so good luck trying to get him to stick around after school to get his role modeling on, but at least he won’t be a shitty teacher like Sam and Rick. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/267 "2009-06-10T02:42:35Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > That lone, flaming wheel must have been made out of Rearden metal. Applauds! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/268 "2009-06-10T02:51:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So John is a black male who wants to teach and would be a good teacher. You think the schools need some sort of new affirmative action hiring policy regarding black male teachers to get John to teach there? He wants to teach and has the ability to do so. The dude’s gonna teach! > > Fred, another black male, doesn’t want to teach, but he would be good at it if he wanted to. Sam, another black male, does want to teach and would be horrible at it. Rick, another black male, doesn’t want to teach and would be horrible at it. These are the guys that LHOD’s policy will hire as teachers. I guess Fred may be OK, but his heart’s not in it, so good luck trying to get him to stick around after school to get his role modeling on, but at least he won’t be a shitty teacher like Sam and Rick. Did your mother drink paint thinner when she was pregnant? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/269 "2009-06-10T03:05:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Did your mother drink paint thinner when she was pregnant? Yes, she did. Maybe she didn’t drink _enough_. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/270 "2009-06-10T03:44:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 1. You are ignoring the possibility that (i) the black boys will know that the black male teachers were hired through an affirmative action program, (ii) which causes the black boys to believe that a black man can’t get a job unless the employer has a preferential hiring policy, (iii) which causes them to feel like real turds. (Hey, if you and LHOD can postulate about the psychology of the typical black boy, I sure can too.) Any comment on the study I [cited](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11215071#post11215071) which suggests that same-race role models actually do produce achievement or are we going to whistle right past that? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/271 "2009-06-10T04:57:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > . > 4. You are ignoring the possibility that (i) the black boys will know that the black male teachers were hired through an affirmative action program, (ii) which causes the black boys to believe that a black man can’t get a job unless the employer has a preferential hiring policy, (iii) which causes them to feel like real turds. (Hey, if you and LHOD can postulate about the psychology of the typical black boy, I sure can too.) Given the stuff cited in this thread so far, I don’t see any doubt left that having competent, dedicated black male teachers would be beneficial for young black males. By their mere presence they would be role models, or they could also take a more involved mentoring role (its a sliding scale ya know). Focussing on what “Affirmative Action” means. I have always taken it to mean a lowering of standards for a particular racial group, to get more of said group into a particular profession. I don’t think this is what LHoD is suggesting. What instead I think he is saying is that more should be done to get black males into teaching. Whether this is more advertising, bonded scholarships, more pay or whatever to make teaching as a career more attractive to only this subset then if would be a good thing. Competition for teaching jobs would still be completely done on the basis of competence, and teaching positions would be awarded in a colourblind manner - only the remuneration / trainging opportunities would change. It seems that the number of black male teachers is small enough such that this particular policy could be implemented on top of current teacher remuneration without “taking something away from” other teachers. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/272 "2009-06-10T15:12:39Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Applauds! \ I can’t believe I’m bothering, but **Rand Rover** , you are acting as if the placement of black (excuse me, African American) role models exists in some sort of stable world. Has it occurred to you that AA youth do indeed have many AA role models? I’ll give you some: gang bangers who became rap stars and multimillionaires, AA males selling drugs on street corners; AA males in federal and state prisons, AA males who have several young women on a string aka “baby daddies”, AA males who make a huge impact solely by their complete absence in the home and lives of AA children\*. IOW, if a young AA male never sees an adult AA male in a position of “normalcy” (for my purposes that is defined as a solid, stable middle class life), with all the rest ever-present in his daily world, which will have the most impact? Re your point that black boys would somehow “know” that AA males were hired using Affirmative Action. I never heard of such nonsense. In elementary school, did you have any notion how teachers were hired or fired? Even in HS, kids don’t know or care about that stuff. To even address this point is giving it more credence than it deserves– **LHOD** is not saying that incompetent teachers be hired solely because of their race. That has been clear since the OP to most of us. [QUOTE=Rand Rover] 1. You haven’t shown that teachers act as role models. I’m sure it “makes sense” to you that a teacher is a role model, but it’s not necessarily the case. I hated most of my teachers growing up (because, as a super genius, I was smarter than almost all of them . . . PUT TOGETHER!!!). 2. Barack Obama (case closed!). [/QUOTE] Two things: 1. you must have missed the entire debate within some AA communities re whether or not Obama was “black enough”. 2. Do you have to purchase a separate seat on airplanes for that ego of yours? \*Obviously the situation is more complex than this and positive AA role models do exist, but I am trying to make a point here. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/273 "2009-06-10T20:40:52Z")
What strikes me here is that someone is pitted over a difference in opinion 😕 > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well considering that “the way I am” is a productive member of society that pays more in taxes than two average households earn each year, I’d say that whatever the reason, I turned out pretty good. Now bring me your finest meats and cheeses. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The only thng disguising it is your hatred of my success. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, to a certain extent, I’m a \*professional \*weasel (and, as is well-know, get paid quite handsomely for it). Your friends must really enjoy your company. If you have friends. I have never seen so much insecurity put together in a single person. > [@glee](#): > > Apart from making unsupported financial claims on the Internet, all you’ve achieved is a crap reputation here. :rolleyes: I suggest to support his claims he could send a grand to every board member 😃 > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So no one cares that LHOD wants to make policy based on his vague notions of what’s good for those little brown people? Suit yourselves. I’ll just think he’s an idiot all on my own. Little brown people??? > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeah, but I’m unbeatable as white in the Evans Gambit. So there. So you studied a single chess opening? Interesting. Do you have some kind of condition which prevents you to play other positions? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/274 "2009-06-10T22:50:57Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > Little brown people??? I believe he posted that sarcastically, in part of his awesome effort to accuse me of racism: he was suggesting that I would use such language in describing my students. It’s part and parcel of his repetition of “these black boys” in quotes, as if such a quote, when talking about the African American males in my second grade class is evidence of unmitigated Jim Crow-era politics. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/275 "2009-06-10T23:05:25Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > So you studied a single chess opening? Interesting. Do you have some kind of condition which prevents you to play other positions? 😃 Cranio-rectal inversion? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/276 "2009-06-11T03:29:31Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > Any comment on the study I [cited](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11215071#post11215071) which suggests that same-race role models actually do produce achievement or are we going to whistle right past that? I tried to click your link to read the study but it didn’t work. But I am also pitting LHOD for other major and minor infractions, so the substance of the particular debate isn’t everything going on here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/277 "2009-06-11T08:25:15Z")
So, we’ll be working up to the major stuff…when? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/278 "2009-06-11T09:17:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeah, but I’m unbeatable as white in the Evans Gambit. So there. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Please. I never get to play 7. Be2 because motherfuckers KNOW not to play 5…Be7 against me. > [@glee](#): > > How do they know not to play it against you? 😕 > How about some of those many games you’ve won? > > Or is this all in your imagination? :smack: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > OK, I admit it. ☹ You found me out. ☹ I thought everyone would be impressed with my supposed chess prowess. However, now that glee has called me out, I must admit that I am unable to produce any games to prove my claims regarding same. > [@flonks](#): > > Your friends must really enjoy your company. If you have friends. I have never seen so much insecurity put together in a single person. Hilarious. Rand Rover claims to be incredibly rich, amazingly clever and tops it off with being brilliant at chess - because he thinks all this will ‘impress people’. :smack: It’s obvious from his posts that he’s stupid - and as soon as he’s challenged on the chess he folds. :eek: So he’s desperate for people to admire him, but can’t even keep up a simple facade of achievement over the Internet. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/279 "2009-06-11T12:49:28Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Hilarious. > > Rand Rover claims to be incredibly rich, amazingly clever and tops it off with being brilliant at chess - because he thinks all this will ‘impress people’. :smack: > > It’s obvious from his posts that he’s stupid - and as soon as he’s challenged on the chess he folds. :eek: > > So he’s desperate for people to admire him, but can’t even keep up a simple facade of achievement over the Internet. :rolleyes: What an astute and 100 percent accurate assessment of the situation. You, sir, are a super genius and a master of the messageboard format. I don’t suppose what really happened was that I decided to get your goat and play with peoples’ perceptions of me as a self-aggrandizing ass by OBVIOUSLY bragging about my chess ability in a goofy and intentionally over-dramatic manner, and Contrapuntal (in all his idiotic glory) and you took me seriously. Nah, that couldn’t be right, could it? Go back to interacting with little wooden people–you aren’t so hot at communicating with the living and breathing kind. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/280 "2009-06-11T12:52:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, we’ll be working up to the major stuff…when? Guess you don’t think that advocating racial discrimination and paternalistic treatment of minorities is all that big a deal, but I (and many others) disagree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658.md?page=15)