# I Pit LHOD and his thread re: AA in schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658 "2009-06-04T02:59:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/61 "2009-06-04T18:43:22Z")
That supposes he made any point at all, let alone a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/62 "2009-06-04T18:47:13Z")
Rand, I can’t help but notice that you’ve continued to post, but haven’t responded to any of the replies addressing your topic. Makes me wonder what your real motivation was for starting this thread. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/63 "2009-06-04T18:49:23Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Rand Rover does make a good point that absent any evidence that a discriminatory (albeit corrective) practice will produce the desired effects, no one should espouse it. The problem is it assumes that affirmative action starts in a position where jobs are awarded fairly, and moves to a position where jobs are awarded unfairly. Which is based on the assumption, as made all too frequently by intellectually sub-normal pseudo-libertarians who consider reading a couple of turgidly written novels to grant them an advanced degree in political philosophy, that there isn’t systemic discrimination in the hiring process (and indeed much of society). Given that evidence has demonstrated that people with African-American sounding names have _ceteris paribus_ a reduced chance of being hired to a position, might it not be possible that the teaching profession includes systemic bias towards hiring white women, over African Americans for the above reason, and over men generally because of a deep seated bias that women, through their make up, are better teachers? If that is the case, then our lil libertardian might just be incorrect in his starting assumptions that we are departing from a “fair” situation. Sorry to stray from the point of this pitting… ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/64 "2009-06-04T18:49:32Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I honestly can’t figure out why you post here. You never miss an opportunity to exclaim just how stupid and worthless you believe everyone around you to be. It must be so tedious, existing among such peasants. It is. But then I read one of **RR** ’s posts and realize that I’m not nearly the arrogant douchebag I occasionally suspect myself to be. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/65 "2009-06-04T18:51:19Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Rand, I can’t help but notice that you’ve continued to post, but haven’t responded to any of the replies addressing your topic. Makes me wonder what your real motivation was for starting this thread. My topic is that LHOD is an idiot. Looks to me like there’s one other post on topic (just above yours), and it just agrees with me, so there’s nothing for me to respond to. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/66 "2009-06-04T18:58:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > My topic is that LHOD is an idiot. Looks to me like there’s one other post on topic (just above yours), and it just agrees with me, so there’s nothing for me to respond to. So it seems to you that **Guinastasia** is \*agreeing \*with you? Interesting. Have you ever been diagnosed with any form of dyslexia? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/67 "2009-06-04T19:01:17Z")
I think Rand Rover is tweeting too hard. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/68 "2009-06-04T19:02:59Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Well, I disagree with affirmative action except in very specific cases when there is a blindingly obvious problem. I’d rather see some sort of voluntary program to encourage teaching as a career. If black people wanted those jobs they are certainly capable of competing on their own merits without laws to give them an advantage. The intent of the program, though, in this case is not to give an advantage to the job applicant – it’s to get a job applicant with a particular set of characteristics. In other words, if I were casting a movie about the life of Thurgood Marshall, I would audition black actors for the part – not to give some advantage to black actors to make up for all the discrimination in Hollywood, but because I needed a black actor to play the part of Thurgood Marshall. I do not express an opinion on the thesis that having black male teachers would serve as role models for young black children, except to say that it doesn’t seem inherently incredible to me. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/69 "2009-06-04T19:04:31Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > My topic is that LHOD is an idiot. Looks to me like there’s one other post on topic (just above yours), and it just agrees with me, so there’s nothing for me to respond to. You could always tell us how much your toilet costs. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/70 "2009-06-04T19:06:44Z")
**RR** doesn’t use a toilet, he has people for that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/71 "2009-06-04T19:10:53Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So it seems to you that **Guinastasia** is \*agreeing \*with you? Interesting. Have you ever been diagnosed with any form of dyslexia? _runs screaming, tearing her hair out_ “SOMEBODY CALL A PRIEST!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/72 "2009-06-04T19:13:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The intent of the program, though, in this case is not to give an advantage to the job applicant – it’s to get a job applicant with a particular set of characteristics. > > In other words, if I were casting a movie about the life of Thurgood Marshall, I would audition black actors for the part – not to give some advantage to black actors to make up for all the discrimination in Hollywood, but because I needed a black actor to play the part of Thurgood Marshall. Ok fair enough, then. I guess that would fall under the blindingly obvious problem of having a school full of black kids with no black teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/73 "2009-06-04T19:17:41Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > And I also thought it was about Alcoholics Anonymous in school. I was like, “Why the hell would they be doing that?” I wondered why **LHOD** was supporting the use of Anti-Aircraft weaponry in schools. You don’t want to throw the metal detectors into a tizzy. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/74 "2009-06-04T19:33:16Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The problem is it assumes that affirmative action starts in a position where jobs are awarded fairly, and moves to a position where jobs are awarded unfairly. Which is based on the assumption, as made all too frequently by intellectually sub-normal pseudo-libertarians who consider reading a couple of turgidly written novels to grant them an advanced degree in political philosophy, that there isn’t systemic discrimination in the hiring process (and indeed much of society). Given that evidence has demonstrated that people with African-American sounding names have _ceteris paribus_ a reduced chance of being hired to a position, might it not be possible that the teaching profession includes systemic bias towards hiring white women, over African Americans for the above reason, and over men generally because of a deep seated bias that women, through their make up, are better teachers? If that is the case, then our lil libertardian might just be incorrect in his starting assumptions that we are departing from a “fair” situation. > > Sorry to stray from the point of this pitting… My positiom requires no assumption that hiring practices are currently fair. Rather, my position is two-fold: (I) LHOD is an idiot because he doesn’t even consider whether having black males as teachers would actually improve the lives of black male students, he just supposes it to be so; and (ii) racially discriminitory hiring practices are ipso facto a bad thing and shouldn’t be done even if some such benefit could be proved. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/75 "2009-06-04T19:44:57Z")
Which means you are assuming that affirmative action involves “racially discriminatory hiring practices” as opposed to acting to correct an existing “racially discriminatory hiring practice.” And in this case, you would likely be wrong. As ever. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/76 "2009-06-04T20:01:38Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Which means you are assuming that affirmative action involves “racially discriminatory hiring practices” as opposed to acting to correct an existing “racially discriminatory hiring practice.” > > And in this case, you would likely be wrong. As ever. What do you mean by saying that I would likely be wrong? LHOD wants schools to hire certain people based on their race and gender. That is a racially (and genderly, or someting) motivated hiring practice, even if done to reverse previous hiring practices that favored whites, and I think it’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/77 "2009-06-04T20:04:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What do you mean by saying that I would likely be wrong? LHOD wants schools to hire certain people based on their race and gender. That is a racially (and genderly, or someting) motivated hiring practice, even if done to reverse previous hiring practices that favored whites, and I think it’s wrong. Bricker made a good point. Would you consider hiring a white guy to play the lead in a Michael Jordan biopic? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/78 "2009-06-04T20:05:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do not express an opinion on the thesis that having black male teachers would serve as role models for young black children, except to say that it doesn’t seem inherently incredible to me. This is what I’m trying to get people to think about. It does sound incredible to me to say that a black male can’t use anyone but another black male as a role model (even assuming that having a role model at all is a necessary or desirable thing). Did you have a role model when you were growing up? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/79 "2009-06-04T20:10:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > This is what I’m trying to get people to think about. It does sound incredible to me to say that a black male can’t use anyone but another black male as a role mode Assuming you’re a lawyer, you absolutely have to know that that’s a strawman. You do know that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/80 "2009-06-04T20:11:29Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Bricker made a good point. Would you consider hiring a white guy to play the lead in a Michael Jordan biopic? See my response above. Also, Bricker is treating a teacher only as someone filling the role of a role model for the teachers students. I question the whole idea of role models and who can be a role model for what type of kids, and I think that being a role model is not thje sum total of a teacher’s job (rather, they are there to teach). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658.md?page=5)