# I Pit LHOD and his thread re: AA in schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658 "2009-06-04T02:59:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/81 "2009-06-04T20:17:56Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What do you mean by saying that I would likely be wrong? LHOD wants schools to hire certain people based on their race and gender. That is a racially (and genderly, or someting) motivated hiring practice, even if done to reverse previous hiring practices that favored whites, and I think it’s wrong. Try reading it again. I am sure someone as well paid as you can work out where I am saying you are wrong. If you have a situation where white peopel are automatically granted 10 bonus points when they take an exam, it does not strike me as recially discriminatory to give non-white students 10 bonus points when they take the test. It would be better if we could eliminate the 10 bonus points given to whites. But unfortunately in the real world, we cannot always do that. Given we have a hiring system that inherently dsicriminates against African Americans, and in the teaching profession, against men, thereby double dsicriminating against African American men, it is asinine to look ONLY at the affirmative action policies at the end and say that is where the discrimination lies. It is all well and good to claim you oppose all race based discrimination (which may or may not be true) while handwaving away bias in the system, and doing nothing to address it. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/82 "2009-06-04T20:21:19Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > See my response above. Also, Bricker is treating a teacher only as someone filling the role of a role model for the teachers students. I question the whole idea of role models and who can be a role model for what type of kids, and I think that being a role model is not thje sum total of a teacher’s job (rather, they are there to teach). You really don’t write, or argue, like a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/83 "2009-06-04T20:26:54Z")
There’s an unproven assumpton going round here, and that is that race/gender is the sole basis for consideration. Which is to say that an incompetent black female teacher is being preferred over a competent white male. I would need evidence of that, but in such cases where that were true, then clearly we must discard the benefit to the students of role models, since it is the benefit of the students we are about here, no? There is likely such a benefit of role models, but it cannot be held to outweigh professional competence. Duh. Similarly, if two teachers are roughly similar in terms of competence and adequacy, I would lean towards the black/female candidate, since the benefit of such teachers for their students is enough to tip an otherwise balanced scale. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/84 "2009-06-04T20:32:22Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You really don’t write, or argue, like a lawyer. I fully concede that sometimes on the SDMB I write more like a guy without enough time to dumb down every post to the level where everybody can understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/85 "2009-06-04T20:38:45Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Try reading it again. I am sure someone as well paid as you can work out where I am saying you are wrong. > > If you have a situation where white peopel are automatically granted 10 bonus points when they take an exam, it does not strike me as recially discriminatory to give non-white students 10 bonus points when they take the test. > > It would be better if we could eliminate the 10 bonus points given to whites. But unfortunately in the real world, we cannot always do that. Given we have a hiring system that inherently dsicriminates against African Americans, and in the teaching profession, against men, thereby double dsicriminating against African American men, it is asinine to look ONLY at the affirmative action policies at the end and say that is where the discrimination lies. It is all well and good to claim you oppose all race based discrimination (which may or may not be true) while handwaving away bias in the system, and doing nothing to address it. Well, I disagree. I don’t think the problem of discriminatiomn can possibly solved by more discrimination. It’s a logical impossibility. Also, the two types of discriminationm are qualitatively different–affirmative action is conscious and absolute while the discrimination you are trying to remedy is fuzzy and may not exist to the degree you think it does when designing the discriminatory solution. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/86 "2009-06-04T20:39:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I fully concede that sometimes on the SDMB I write more like a guy without enough time to dumb down every post to the level where everybody can understand it. Ah, so that’s why your grammar sucks, your arguments aren’t cohesive and you repeatedly ignore direct questions asked to you. You’re too busy to dumb down your brilliant words so that we can understand them. It’s just an illusion created by our ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/87 "2009-06-04T20:42:50Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, I disagree. I don’t think the problem of discriminatiomn can possibly solved by more discrimination. It’s a logical impossibility. Also, the two types of discriminationm are qualitatively different–affirmative action is conscious and absolute while the discrimination you are trying to remedy is fuzzy and may not exist to the degree you think it does when designing the discriminatory solution. I am sure you do disagree. I tallows you to pretend you support equal treatment while in fact you support preservation of the biases within the current system. Not in the slightest bit surprised. After all, you have done very nicely out of the current system, and it is much better to think that those who haven’t done so well have caused their own demise by not making as good choices as you, or not working so hard, or not being as smart (or as down right charming) as you. I am sure it lets you sleep a lot better than an admission that the system itself might be flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/88 "2009-06-04T20:50:18Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I fully concede that sometimes on the SDMB I write more like a guy without enough time to dumb down every post to the level where everybody can understand it. Never gonna give! Never gonna give! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/89 "2009-06-04T20:50:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Oh, I’m sure there are lots of people who _envy_ you. Probably not. I for one, have my own money. The bills get paid, I eat good, I can afford my toys. I’m not a millionaire or billionaire, but so what. To me, money doesn’t determine a person’s true value. It’s only a tool of exchange, so we don’t have to barter and pack a herd of goats, fifty pounds of cheese, or whatever people used to barter with. A rich person can be a saint or a villain, just like a poor person. Money, or the lack of it, does not make the person. I don’t feel jealous or envy anyone who has more money, because - hey it’s theirs. But, I don’t feel in awe of them either. Disclaimer… It’s still much nicer to “function” on a full stomach, I will grant you that 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/90 "2009-06-04T20:56:27Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I am sure you do disagree. I tallows you to pretend you support equal treatment while in fact you support preservation of the biases within the current system. Not in the slightest bit surprised. After all, you have done very nicely out of the current system, and it is much better to think that those who haven’t done so well have caused their own demise by not making as good choices as you, or not working so hard, or not being as smart (or as down right charming) as you. I am sure it lets you sleep a lot better than an admission that the system itself might be flawed. Please. If I could snap my fingers and be a lesbian black female I’d do it in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/91 "2009-06-04T21:05:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Please. If I could snap my fingers and be a lesbian black female I’d do it in a heartbeat. That’s hot. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/92 "2009-06-04T21:23:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Idiotic poster is kinda dumb. The difference, of course, is that while I’m not unintelligent, you rather clearly go out of your way to mention your income, why that shows that you turned out as a good person, etc… and then feign shock and surprise when called on the carpet. So, yah. I’m not stupid, but you are trolling. Fly your troll flag high, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/93 "2009-06-04T21:26:03Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Please. If I could snap my fingers and be a lesbian black female I’d do it in a heartbeat. I’m sure you can apply your humongous personnal wealth to the task. I’d start with the sex change. Then apply blackface, and the lesbian bars are your oyster ! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/94 "2009-06-04T21:31:45Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I honestly can’t figure out why you post here. You never miss an opportunity to exclaim just how stupid and worthless you believe everyone around you to be. It must be so tedious, existing among such peasants. Because everywhere else the peasants are even less to his standards. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/95 "2009-06-04T21:38:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Because everywhere else the peasants are even less to his standards. Actually, I’ve lurked for a long time, starting back before the liberal douche coup, and I was motivated to post last year once the Obama love just got to sickly sweet. Fighting ignorance is fun, and there’s a lot here to fight. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/96 "2009-06-04T21:43:52Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Actually, I’ve lurked for a long time, starting back before the liberal douche coup, and I was motivated to post last year once the Obama love just got to sickly sweet. Fighting ignorance is fun, and there’s a lot here to fight. It’s my liberal douche coup. You don’t know what I got. Better to have that in your head than Astley ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/97 "2009-06-04T21:44:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Because everywhere else the peasants are even less to his standards. Or perhaps they ran him off with torches and pitchforks. Food for thought. I can totally bring my own pitchfork, too. You guys just say the word. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/98 "2009-06-04T21:52:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > (I) LHOD is an idiot because he doesn’t even consider whether having black males as teachers would actually improve the lives of black male students, he just supposes it to be so; Not to dismiss the entirety of your argument, but I feel that a point made earlier in the thread bears repeating. You state that LHOD is an idiot for simply supposing something to be true, yet you offer no support for your counter position other than your own supposition that black boys _would not_ fare better if they had black male teachers as role models. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/99 "2009-06-04T22:14:26Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > It’s my liberal douche coup. You don’t know what I got. Thank you. This is exactly what this thread needed. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658/100 "2009-06-04T22:14:42Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > It’s my liberal douche coup. You don’t know what I got… Your joke references a band known as the Beach Boys. For the benefit of our Puppy Dopers who are not doddering off to play shuffleboard, this band was well known for songs about popular cars, in an era when autoeroticism was considered respectable. They were clean-cut young men, disdaining drugs in favor of ravening greed. Hence, they became known as “America’s Band”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-lhod-and-his-thread-re-aa-in-schools/498658.md?page=6)