# I Pit Libertarians who don't even know the implications of their "philosophy" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533 "2011-05-28T06:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/1 "2011-05-28T06:06:56Z")
In another recent thread (“Libertarian Mythology”) I wrote > [@Libertarian Mythology](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-mythology/583327/23): > > Oh no. American liberty, whether the L is capitalized or not, is NOT the liberty of the common man to infringe on the property rights of the rich(\*). Police and regulatory power for that will only increase in their Utopia. If you’re looking for the money savings in libertarian government, that comes from removed support for the non-property rights of the common man: no money for public beaches, parks and forests; no welfare; relieving businesses of onerous employee safety standards; etc. > > (\* - One of them will chirp in to inform us that the property rights of the poor are also protected in Libertarianism 😃 Like Marie “Let them eat cake” Antoinette, that the poor lack property seems not to occur to them!) > > If you deduce from this train of thought that real-world Libertarianism is not so different from the Fascism of, say, Pinochet’s Chile, congratulations! You probably now understand Libertarianism better than these so-called “Libertarians” do. My post received no response. I’m pretty sure the typical reaction was “It looks like **septimus** has stopped taking his meds again!” 😃 I’ll admit that I sometimes exaggerate to make a point clear, but there is basic truth in the post above. Most “Libertarians” either don’t think their philosophy through, or are just right-wing fanatics who think 5-syllable words give them intellectual credibility. The connection between Libertarianism and Pinochet’s Chile was not wholly arbitrary. Instead, libertarians like Milton Friedman had much influence with Pinochet, and his coup is sometimes even thought of as an experiment by the “Chicago school.” Books have been written about this; [Here’s one of the first links to show up Googling.](http://www.bidstrup.com/economics.htm) (And No, sillies: No one’s ever suggested that Friedman condoned political killings or torture.) Since Libertarianism, as described by its more intelligent proponents, ends up being Plutocracy, I would ask Libertarians what they think of Democracy. I suppose in their Utopia, politicians are at “liberty” to buy votes, as is done in “democracies” like Thailand. Given the power of the rich in America due to campaign funding and private media, the U.S.A. already has pretty much achieved the bought-and-paid-for election aspect of Libertarian Utopia. It’s not fair to argue against the stupidest proponent of a philosophy, but some of these “Libertarians” sure are amusing. One “Libertarian” (probably BANNED by now) described his ideals at SDMB several months ago. One of his concerns was left-wing government putting poison in vaccines … we never did get a straight answer about whether he knew mumps and measles were contagious or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/2 "2011-05-28T06:13:36Z")
Yeah, FUCK all libertarians with the best spiked dildo the free market has to offer! ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/3 "2011-05-28T06:53:13Z")
In one of the libertarian threads I made a rather long post about what it would take to safely order a sandwich in a libertarian country. (No food inspectors, that sort of thing.) I don’t recall much of a response to that one, either. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/4 "2011-05-28T11:00:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, FUCK all libertarians with the best spiked dildo the free market has to offer! But, if you are in Canada, wait until they wake up first. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/5 "2011-05-28T17:14:56Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > In one of the libertarian threads I made a rather long post about what it would take to safely order a sandwich in a libertarian country. (No food inspectors, that sort of thing.) I don’t recall much of a response to that one, either. Yeah, I never accept dinner invitations from anyone for that very reason. Not until we have random inspection of private homes for food food handling practices. What needs to be pitted wrt Libertarian threads is the idiots who inevitably show up with SOMALIA!! :eek::eek: ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/6 "2011-05-28T17:28:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I never accept dinner invitations from anyone for that very reason. Not until we have random inspection of private homes for food food handling practices. > > What needs to be pitted wrt Libertarian threads is the idiots who inevitably show up with SOMALIA!! :eek::eek: So you have no problem if someone cuts their hamburger with sawdust? Or right, the invisible fist of the market will punch his cornhole. I forgot. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/7 "2011-05-28T17:34:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I never accept dinner invitations from anyone for that very reason. Not until we have random inspection of private homes for food food handling practices. Do you often accept dinner invitations from people you don’t know? Do you expect the hosts to have gotten their food from a store that is a link in the regulatory process? IME, the further out on the libertarian spectrum a person/poster gets, the weaker their capacity for analytical thought. This is not unique to libertarians, but it is fairly prevalent. Mix a strong ability to process arguments with libertarian ideology, and you end up with someone who favours certain goals in the name of libertarianism but without an actual libertarian system. Or, of course, a sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/8 "2011-05-28T17:40:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I never accept dinner invitations from anyone for that very reason. Not until we have random inspection of private homes for food food handling practices. Sol what’s your point here? We can do away with all regulation because you can think of one situation where the lack of regulation isn’t much of a problem? I think one of the concerns with restaurants is that they distribute food to large numbers of people, so if there’s a problem with the food, a large number of people could be affected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/9 "2011-05-28T18:20:59Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Sol what’s your point here? We can do away with all regulation because you can think of one situation where the lack of regulation isn’t much of a problem? One situation? How about one or two situations in almost every home every day of the year. > [@](#): > > I think one of the concerns with restaurants is that they distribute food to large numbers of people, so if there’s a problem with the food, a large number of people could be affected. But the vast majority of meals are prepared in homes, so the bigger potential problem is there. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/10 "2011-05-28T18:23:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > One situation? How about one or two situations in almost every home every day of the year. > > But the vast majority of meals are prepared in homes, so the bigger potential problem is there. And the places where they buy the ingredients for said meals are somehow exempt from FDA regulations? ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/11 "2011-05-28T18:52:51Z")
Libertarianism is WoW for politcos. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/12 "2011-05-28T19:54:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But the vast majority of meals are prepared in homes, so the bigger potential problem is there. 😕 😕😕 The two main sources of food poisoning are the ingredients and the preparation. Ingredients are usually purchased even for home-prepared meals. If you’re trying to pretend that the same left-wingers who insist on inspecting canneries want to force their way into your home and watch your wife wash her hands, then I’m afraid you’re adding support to the “Libertarians are stupid” contingent. Now, I happen to think that teaching hygiene in elementary schools is a good thing. Lately there seem to be some right-wing idiots who oppose that kind of thing as socialist or whatever. I doubt that we need to digress and consider whether that ilk of idiot are Libertarian or not: The taxonomy of right-wing idiots, like speciation within the baboon family, doesn’t interest me particularly. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/13 "2011-05-28T19:58:02Z")
Oy, Internet Libertarians. A tedious and often ridiculous species of message board poster. My favorites are the ones who, having been educated in public schools and raised on melamine-free milk and DDT-free produce, believe they secured all that they have solely by their own innate talent and gumption and will be damned if they’ll let the government rob them of some of their salary to regulate food and pay teachers. I’m also charmed by their faith that they wouldn’t get squashed like a bug by unregulated corporations colluding to make sure workers are paid the absolute minimum and worked the absolute maximum. No, they would negotiate their contracts with steely determination until both parties reached a mutually satisfactory agreement. And if the agreed upon salary or health care was insufficient, why you just march up the road to the competitor, who will gladly pay a fair, competitive wage in their free market quest to be more profitable than their rival. I suspect people working in sweatshops would find Internet Libertarians rather puzzling. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/14 "2011-05-28T20:02:37Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 😕😕 The two main sources of food poisoning are the ingredients and the preparation. Ingredients are usually purchased even for home-prepared meals. If you’re trying to pretend that the same left-wingers who insist on inspecting canneries want to force their way into your home and watch your wife wash her hands… When I post that I think left wingers are proposing that, then you can call me on it. But I didn’t. > [@](#): > > Now, I happen to think that teaching hygiene in elementary schools is a good thing. Lately there seem to be some right-wing idiots who oppose that kind of thing as socialist or whatever. I doubt that we need to digress and consider whether that ilk of idiot are Libertarian or not: The taxonomy of right-wing idiots, like speciation within the baboon family, doesn’t interest me particularly. It’s not often that we see people bragging about their ignorance around here, and it’s double ironic considering the the purpose of your Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/15 "2011-05-28T20:16:20Z")
John, you usually bring a lot more coherence to threads than this. Your post that you feel safe eating over your friends’ houses was (apparently) responding to the suggestion that a true libertarian society’s foodstuff would be inherently unsafe–or at least much less safe than what you find under a regulatory regime. Posters have pointed out several problems with this equivalency, but you haven’t addressed any of them. Again, this is uncharacteristic, so perhaps people have vastly missed your point. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/16 "2011-05-28T20:19:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When I post that I think left wingers are proposing that, then you can call me on it. But I didn’t. > It’s not often that we see people bragging about their ignorance around here, and it’s double ironic considering the the purpose of your Pit thread. 1. I didn’t think so, but what was the purpose of the comment about home food preparation? It struck me and others as a non sequitur. 2. I’m sure this is some clever snark, but I’ve gotten no value from your posts in this thread. Is the fact that families cook food at home the only defense you can muster for Libertarianism? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/17 "2011-05-28T20:23:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Is the fact that families cook food at home the only defense you can muster for Libertarianism? 😃 People who eat mustered libertarians are rubes. Ketchup only. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/18 "2011-05-28T20:43:25Z")
Libertarianism is political science fantasy fiction. Sort of like Dune for grownups. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/19 "2011-05-28T20:47:34Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > John, you usually bring a lot more coherence to threads than this. Your post that you feel safe eating over your friends’ houses was (apparently) responding to the suggestion that a true libertarian society’s foodstuff would be inherently unsafe–or at least much less safe than what you find under a regulatory regime. > > Posters have pointed out several problems with this equivalency, but you haven’t addressed any of them. Again, this is uncharacteristic, so perhaps people have vastly missed your point. I’ve noticed intelligent posts from John in threads on non-political topics. Is he a defender of “Libertarianism”? If so, I expect nothing but what we’ve gotten from him here: potshots at irrelevancies and a pretense that the substantial and valid points raised are beneath his dignity to bother with rebuttal. Perhaps I’m also at fault to some extent, answering snark with snark, but it’s very hard to take a poster seriously in this thread when his only answer to my OP (which is so strongly phrased it would be easy to rebut if it were wrong) is a non sequitur about home food preparation! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533/20 "2011-05-28T21:04:51Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > John, you usually bring a lot more coherence to threads than this. Your post that you feel safe eating over your friends’ houses was (apparently) responding to the suggestion that a true libertarian society’s foodstuff would be inherently unsafe–or at least much less safe than what you find under a regulatory regime. > > Posters have pointed out several problems with this equivalency, but you haven’t addressed any of them. Again, this is uncharacteristic, so perhaps people have vastly missed your point. This is a Pit thread, and not a very good one. We’ve got at least one active thread in GD to debate libertarian topics. If you want a reasoned debate, go there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-libertarians-who-dont-even-know-the-implications-of-their-philosophy/583533.md?page=2)