# I Pit Magiver **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851 "2021-03-13T21:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/241 "2025-09-23T03:58:04Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > IMHO it is all too easy to assume those who disagree with us are trolls and I think the mods are correctly not doing so. When the disagreement is whether or not you should lie about everything you’re talking about, there’s a very good case that they’re trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/242 "2025-09-23T03:58:48Z")
I appreciate that you may have quoted me, and probably did, as a means to making your point, not specifically in answer to anything I wrote, so I’ll just point out for anyone else interested that I did not say that he is a troll. Rather I was questioning what, to me, seemed an internal inconsistency within what I had read of the thread, pointing out that it is unlikely that a poster could be both stupid and a troll and last as long as he has. (I will own that my inclination, based on the limited amount I had read, was to believe that he is a consummate troll, and being very strategically smart about it. That, of course, may be quite incorrect.) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/243 "2025-09-23T04:01:43Z")
Plenty of stupid people believe obvious nonsense, and lie to themselves and others. Often to save face or maintain an entrenched worldview. It is simply incorrect to say that you can infer that someone who lies all the time does so to anger people (which is what trolling is). ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/244 "2025-09-23T04:05:33Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > to say that you can infer that someone who lies all the time does so to anger people (which is what trolling is). Ah, so now you **agree** that he’s a troll, thank you for this. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/245 "2025-09-23T04:08:03Z")
Not appropriate for me to weigh in anymore, but as always, if they do anything verifiably against the rules, you can and should flag. We get lots of practice in the whole “Just because I disagree with poster XYZ, it doesn’t mean they’re trolling.” But seriously, we don’t have the time or energy to read every thread, I for example just spot check, or read the first dozen or so posts in my forums to make sure it’s viable and on track and then leave it unless it fits my personal interest. Sadly, far too often, by the time something gets flagged much damage has been done. The flip side of this request though, is some posters flag because they have a “thing” with another poster, or a specific subject, or are angry because they just got modded. So in all seriousness, flag if there’s something wrong, or reasonable doubt, but for any poster, please remember the now oft-repeated “just because…” line. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/246 "2025-09-23T04:09:11Z")
You sure you want to leave up a post in which you deliberately misquote me by leaving the words > “It is simply incorrect” off a quote in order to invert my meaning? You may want to rethink your decision. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/247 "2025-09-23T04:11:57Z")
I think that was performance art to demonstrate how Magiver has been known to quote people. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/248 "2025-09-23T04:18:20Z")
Modified after the post immediately following came in: Whew, glad that’s cleared up, misquoting to change meaning sucks, and per my earlier comment, it’s very much against the TOS, even in the pit, so if you see anyone doing so, please flag. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/249 "2025-09-23T04:18:31Z")
Yup, it’s a tiny sample of his trolling schtick. As to why he’s gotten away with it, beats me. I’m not a mod and can’t see it from their perspective, and have no basis to criticize. If I was I might have a different opinion. I will also say he _doesn’t_ always get away with his shenanigans. He’s been in hot water before. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/250 "2025-09-23T04:29:31Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Yup, it’s a tiny sample of his trolling schtick. You and I probably disagree on the definition of trolling. I take what may be a somewhat old fashioned view that it means “posting things you don’t actually agree with to get a rise out of people”. Many people seem to use a different definition namely “being a ninny”. Plenty of people lie and misquote in the heat of battle because they are an embarrassed, out of their depth ninny rather than because they are trying to get a rise out of people. [Edited: wait, am I allowed to use the f word here these days? Eh, I’ve lost track. I’ll edit.] ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/251 "2025-09-23T04:43:00Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You and I probably disagree on the definition of trolling. I take what may be a somewhat old fashioned view that it means “posting things you don’t actually agree with to get a rise out of people”. Many people seem to use a different definition namely “being a fuckwit”. Just to clarify, he’ll post something, get shown how it’s wrong, then intentionally misrepresent everything that was done to refute his statement. Both the evidence of how he’s wrong, and the argument that the other person said. Over and over. There’s no “heat of the moment” when it’s prolonged, and even brought up in multiple threads. He’s not doing it by accident. And he’s not being sincere when he so carefully manipulates it to be misleading. He will, for example, claim to be an expert in something where he clearly has no idea what he’s talking about, which is where the “stupid” accusation comes from. He will then zealously defend his position through deception, in a tendentious way. And he can also take a bit of a sealion position as well. That is why he is called both an idiot and a troll. They aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s like he trolls in retaliation for people revealing his stupidity, if that makes sense. He’s probably the longest-tenured currently active poster on this board with such a negative signal-to-noise ratio that it is somewhat confounding at times. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/252 "2025-09-23T04:48:21Z")
I’ve seen plenty of people do all that and a lot worse motivated by a desire to save face rather than in order to annoy people. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/253 "2025-09-23T05:13:28Z")
And we’ve all seen plenty of people do it _to_ annoy people. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/254 "2025-09-23T05:18:44Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I take what may be a somewhat old fashioned view that it means “posting things you don’t actually agree with to get a rise out of people”. Many people seem to use a different definition namely “being a ninny”. I disagree emphatically with the “things you don’t actually agree with” part. Right now, for example, we have **Pedro** shitting up the Kirk threads. He himself is absolutely and aggressively aligned with the far right MAGAsphere and is making no secret of his beliefs. But the _way_ he’s doing it — gleeful sarcasm, baiting, evasive chain-yanking — is 100% trolling. His conduct is consciously and deliberately intended to rile people up, and he clearly takes amusement in making people react to his shenanigans. It’s unquestionably trolling, and it’s unquestionably in service to his actual beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/255 "2025-09-23T05:37:41Z")
It is literally impossible to tell what a person’s motivation is. You can’t know for certain if a person is sincere or not. If you only say someone is trolling because you know they aren’t being sincere, then trolling doesn’t exist. Fortunately, the mods here have said before that knowing intent isn’t necessary. Even if they are sincere, if their posting has the same effect as trolling, it’s treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/256 "2025-09-23T05:43:00Z")
If you go back to the Benghazi thread Magiver was clearly both shitifying the thread and posting in service to his actual beliefs (his hate-boner for Hillary Clinton). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/257 "2025-09-23T05:46:41Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > The “top left” Dunning-Kruger Effect refers to the overestimation of skills by less competent individuals, who suffer from a “dual burden” of incompetence and ignorance of their own ignorance. This lack of metacognitive skill prevents them from recognizing their own deficiencies. > > AKA The Peak of Mount Stupid. An old saying comes to mind. He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Leave him. He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is ignorant. Teach him. He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep. Wake him. He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise. Follow him. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/258 "2025-09-23T05:46:52Z")
Given that IME pretty much nobody who trainwrecks in attempting to defend their indefensible position ever admits they were motivated by either facesaving or to troll, we are both making a judgment call. My view is that plenty of people are stupid enough to start by propounding a sincere but indefensible position, and boneheaded enough (and D-K crippled enough) to continue to do so to the point where they are making jerks of themselves. IMHO for me to make your assumption of trolling would involve me overturning my initial view that such people started out from a sincere but indefensible position. Which isn’t necessary (given that face-saving is an adequate explanation) and doing so offends Occam’s and Hanlon’s, as I’ve said. Combine that with my experience that people have a strong desire to believe that others are motivated by evil rather than stupidity so they can get angrier at them, and I doubt your view. > [@Cervaise](#): > > But the _way_ he’s doing it — gleeful sarcasm, baiting, evasive chain-yanking — is 100% trolling. There’s far more trolling on these boards than I was aware (based on your view) given the amount of gleefull sarcasm etc directed by us at MAGA, psychics, and so on. You sure your perception of trolling isn’t about whose ox is being gored? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/259 "2025-09-23T05:48:46Z")
🙄 _One_ sarcastic post — or occasional sarcasm — does not make a troll. When one does _nothing but_ yank people’s chains — _whether or not_ one is sincere in the underlying beliefs — then one is a troll. This is not difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/260 "2025-09-23T05:49:58Z")
There is little other tone directed at MAGA’s here, and by some people extremely consistently. Not that I’m against that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851.md?page=14)