# I Pit Magiver

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [March 13, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851 "2021-03-13T21:55:54Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 14

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**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/261 "2025-09-23T05:54:27Z")

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You know what I absolutely fucking hate? The use of specific tools like Occam’s Razor outside the very limited scope they were intended for. When it comes to _people_, Kant had it right:  
“The variety of beings should not rashly be diminished”

Stupid is a thing. Troll is a thing.

Stupid _and_ troll is _absolutely_ a thing. A most common thing on the internet.  
[![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Greater_Internet_Fuckwad_Theory.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Greater_Internet_Fuckwad_Theory.png)

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**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/262 "2025-09-23T06:02:48Z")

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> [@Princhester](#):
>
> There’s far more trolling on these boards than I was aware (based on your view) given the amount of gleefull sarcasm etc directed by us at MAGA, psychics, and so on.
> 
> You sure your perception of trolling isn’t about whose ox is being gored?

You can’t really troll people that don’t actually post here.

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**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/263 "2025-09-23T06:18:31Z")

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> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> You know what I absolutely fucking hate? The use of specific tools like Occam’s Razor outside the very limited scope they were intended for.

What’s “very limited” about a principle that says that the simplest explanation for a phenomenon, requiring the fewest assumptions, is usually most likely to be correct? It seems to have pretty broad applicability across the fields of science, logic, and philosophy. So does the related maxim “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity” (Hanlon’s razor) which I’ve long found to be an invaluable guiding principle for assessing human behaviour.

All of this is pertinent to my personal opinion of the subject of this thread. I think he’s basically a dumbass who considers himself an authority on virtually anything and everything, and is not shy about sharing his deep knowledge with us. I think he’s also a natural contrarian, so if his learned views are at odds with the consensus of most Dopers, to him that’s a bonus. That’s somewhat troll-adjacent but I don’t think he’s really a classic troll, just a run-of-the-mill dumbass. As a bonus, as noted earlier, he also appears to be a right-wing nutjob and bigot.

I concur with your Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, but it affects different people in radically different ways. Stupidity tends to make one especially vulnerable to the influence of anonymity + audience, which tends to affect the stupid like a powerful drug, the distinguished subject of this thread being a case in point. But that’s not the same as being a classic troll, even if the effect is similar.

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**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/264 "2025-09-23T06:36:07Z")

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> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> What’s “very limited” about a principle that says that the simplest explanation for a phenomenon, requiring the fewest assumptions, is usually most likely to be correct? It seems to have pretty broad applicability across the fields of science, logic, and philosophy.

Fields where it has been demonstrated to maybe be a reasonable place to start, but totally wrong.

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**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/265 "2025-09-23T06:54:18Z")

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People are not ‘phenomena’, they’re complicated systems. Applying philosophical shortcuts to them just doesn’t work well. Ask the economists…

Also, Occam’s Razor is a heuristic, not a final arbiter.

And Hanlon’s is just dumb. There are a _lot_ more malicious people than it supposes. Like - _most_ of humanity.

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**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/266 "2025-09-23T07:15:32Z")

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> [@crowmanyclouds](#):
>
> > [@Princhester](#):
> >
> > You sure your perception of trolling isn’t about whose ox is being gored?
> 
> You can’t really troll people that don’t actually post here.

Exactly. Whether sincere or insincere, the core element of trolling is that the troll is trying to get a rise out of people. It’s frankly bizarre to suggest that a community that is sarcastic and mocking _with_ one another _against_ an _outside target_ is somehow trolling themselves.

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**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/267 "2025-09-23T07:30:09Z")

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> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> People are not ‘phenomena’, they’re complicated systems. Applying philosophical shortcuts to them just doesn’t work well. Ask the economists…

Economics isn’t about “people” at all as individuals. It’s a kind of pseudo-science that can only be understood with a good dose of chaos theory and the tragedy of the commons thrown in.

> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Also, Occam’s Razor is a heuristic, not a final arbiter.

Of course it’s a heuristic. But like all useful heuristics, it persists because of its fundamental utility as a general truth.

> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> And Hanlon’s is just dumb. There are a _lot_ more malicious people than it supposes. Like - _most_ of humanity.

That’s a depressingly pessimistic view of humanity. Not that I’m all that inclined to put enormous faith in hairless apes with vestigial reptilian brains, but if your pessimism were literally true, we surely would have a lot more crime, and in particular, a lot more crime like vandalism that lacks tangible rewards. For a far more optimistic and charitable view, I refer you to Steven Pinker’s important book _The Better Angels of Our Nature_. Think, for instance, of dealing with the customer service of your various utility providers. Do they hate you, or is what you’re experiencing just the consequence of the stupidity of the agents and their managers (and, I’d say, overwhelmingly due to the stupidity of the managers who dictate things like training and empowerment).

Anyway, getting back to the subject, I maintain that Magiver is just a common run-of-the-mill dumbass (or “smartass” with the understanding that “smart” is ironic) who greatly enjoys being contrarian. Whether that’s a “troll” or not is a matter of interpretation, but it appears not to have risen to the standard of this board’s threshold for moderation. In fact, as much as he often annoys me, I think his contrarianism is usually well below the board’s standard for trolling.

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**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/268 "2025-09-23T07:42:53Z")

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> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> In fact, as much as he often annoys me, I think his contrarianism is usually well below the board’s standard for trolling.

One of the hallmarks of a classic troll is that they find a community’s sensitive spot or spots, and drill down. Whether it’s political, social, or personal, the troll delights in mashing that button.

**Magiver,** by contrast, stubbornly goes on for pages and pages about the right way to beat up a chimpanzee. I simply can’t see that as trolling, because nobody here cares about imagining a martial-arts fight against an ape. It’s not button-pushing. That, to me, is just pure, arrogant stupidity.

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**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/269 "2025-09-23T08:45:36Z")

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> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> It’s a kind of pseudo-science

So is the kind of pop psychology you’re basing your argument on.

> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> But like all useful heuristics, it persists because of its fundamental utility as a general truth.

That is so missing what makes a heuristic a heuristic and not a rule. Heuristics are about _both_ expediency and about reducing cognitive load. But _that only works when the actual outcome is agreeable to most_. And letting a trolling cockgoblin get away with it because of expediency is the very opposite of agreeable. Whereas swift justice would satisfy a lot more people (not you, obviously, but that’s an allowable margin AFAIAC)

> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> That’s a depressingly pessimistic view of humanity.

Yet all of this bears it out \<points to all of human history\>

> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> if your pessimism were literally true, we surely would have a lot more crime, and in particular, a lot more crime like vandalism that lacks tangible rewards

We _do_ have a lot of crime, and a _lot_ of petty vandalism. Is there no tagging in your city? And us not having more is easily explained by humans not only being vicious little shits, but _cowardly_ vicious little shits.

> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> I refer you to Steven Pinker

Please don’t. Not if you want me to take anything you say seriously. Try Hans Rosling instead, he at least brought the receipts..

And even then, I’m not convinced. [Graeber said it better than I could, though.](https://imgur.com/6BtzzZi)

> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> I think his contrarianism is usually well below the board’s standard for trolling.

I think this thread is plain evidence that it isn’t.

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**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/270 "2025-09-23T09:28:21Z")

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> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> He’ll get a fixed idea about [whatever], then defend it to the death despite all evidence by better informed folks to the contrary.

This makes the big difference between average Dopers and the few that really annoy me.

Everyone says stupid things sometimes, but the question is if you can recognize it’s stupid and drop it or not.

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**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/271 "2025-09-23T10:10:07Z")

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> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@wolfpup](#):
> >
> > I refer you to Steven Pinker
> 
> Please don’t. Not if you want me to take anything you say seriously. Try Hans Rosling instead, he at least brought the receipts..
> 
> And even then, I’m not convinced. [Graeber said it better than I could, though.](https://imgur.com/6BtzzZi)

I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t cut off my quotes to remove context. You actually cut this one off in mid-word! I don’t claim that Steven Pinker is the ultimate arbiter of everything. What I actually said was:

> For a far more optimistic and charitable view, I refer you to Steven Pinker’s important book _The Better Angels of Our Nature_ . Think, for instance, of dealing with the customer service of your various utility providers. Do they hate you, or is what you’re experiencing just the consequence of the stupidity of the agents and their managers (and, I’d say, overwhelmingly due to the stupidity of the managers who dictate things like training and empowerment).

As for Graeber, if you want to put David Graeber up against Steven Pinker, that’s on you. Good luck with that.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/272 "2025-09-23T10:28:49Z")

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> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t cut off my quotes to remove context.

The fuck, now  
? There’s a motherfucking expand-arrow to _ **all the context** _ right in my post.

Not that I needed more context for what I wanted to say - _I_ wasn’t talking about what you had to say about Pinker, I was _talking about the fact you were citing Pinker at all_. My first version of that post had _just_ the words “Stephen Pinker”, in fact. Boy, if _this_ bunched your pants this much, _that_ would have given you testicular torsion.

Although this is clearly all performative, so go ahead.

> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> I don’t claim that Steven Pinker is the ultimate arbiter of everything.

And _I_ didn’t claim you claimed that, so…

> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> As for Graeber, if you want to put David Graeber up against Steven Pinker, that’s on you. Good luck with that.

Don’t need luck, their respective bodies of work speak for themselves.

Although it also helps just a _tiny_ bit that Graeber isn’t known for travelling on Epstein’s Lolita Express Airlines and denying the association. Because lying is always a good look for public intellectuals.

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**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/273 "2025-09-23T10:52:15Z")

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Pinker is a piece of shit who appears on Nazi-adjacent podcasts: [@stairwaytokevin.bsky.social on Bluesky](https://bsky.app/profile/stairwaytokevin.bsky.social/post/3lqlabayf7k2k)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/274 "2025-09-23T12:14:23Z")

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In [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abc-pulls-jimmy-kimmel-show-indefinitely-because-of-comments-about-gop-response-to-charlie-kirk-death-kimmel-will-be-back-on-air-tuesday-2025-09-23/1023138/247) I attempted to get Magiver to actually engage with the arguments of his opponents.

Anyone who is engaging in a debate in good faith can attempt to understand the arguments of their opponents and engage with them. You can think your opponents are totally wrong, and even totally evil, and yet still understand and address the argument they’re attempting to make.

Magiver does not do this. He decides his position is correct and doesn’t even bother to try to understand how anyone else might think differently or what they’re trying to argue. It doesn’t matter how many times you demonstrate him to be wrong or have a flaw in his logic, it won’t change his mind to slightest bit. His purpose is to just beat you over the head with what he thinks is correct over and over again, never gaining any understanding, insight, or value at all from the conversation.

So my post was basically to say “hey, here’s the argument we’re making. It’s a competing explanation for what has happened to yours. Can you acknowledge you understand it? Can you acknowledge that it’s a valid interpretation of events even if it contradicts your preferred beliefs?” – anyone engaging in good faith could look at my post and say “yes, I understand what you’re saying, but here’s why I think my explanation makes more sense” – he didn’t even try that. He replied to my post but not with any substance, he skipped out on the issue entirely.

Is he a troll? My gut says probably not. There are plenty of stupid, hard-headed people in the world who believe their preferred beliefs are always correct and can hear contradictory things without ever considering them. There’s no reason to think he’s not one of them. He doesn’t seem smart enough to actually be a troll.

And the thing is - trolling usually involves faking being an idiot exactly like the sort of idiot he is. Does it even matter if he’s a troll? He doesn’t operate in good faith, he doesn’t actually engage in debate, he’s not an asset to any debate.

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**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/275 "2025-09-23T12:20:08Z")

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I read that post of yours. It was thoughtful and rational. Apart from that, you used quite a few fairly big words and constructed complete and coherent sentences.

That was your first mistake 😉

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**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/276 "2025-09-23T14:50:08Z")

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Yanno, if indeed our guest of honor is a malicious actor = troll, he’s surely loving the ill-tempered convo some of us are having now, all catalyzed by his mere existence.

He doesn’t even need to be here to create controversy and anger amongst us. Meta-troll FTW?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/277 "2025-09-23T14:55:00Z")

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> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> Yanno, if indeed our guest of honor is a malicious actor = troll, he’s surely loving the ill-tempered convo some of us are having now, all catalyzed by his mere existence.

Some posters need little encouragement.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/278 "2025-09-23T15:03:54Z")

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Which is more likely if the purpose is create a negative reaction:

1. “They aren’t reacting to what I say, so I’ll just slink away.”
2. “They aren’t reacting to what I say, so I’ll just keep upping the ante until they do."

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/279 "2025-09-23T15:05:02Z")

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> [@Pleonast](#):
>
> > [@LSLGuy](#):
> >
> > Yanno, if indeed our guest of honor is a malicious actor = troll, he’s surely loving the ill-tempered convo some of us are having now, all catalyzed by his mere existence.
> 
> Some posters need little encouragement. &nbsp;

I had much more to say on the Pinker sidetrack, but I resisted, because it could not possibly go to a productive place. Let’s just say that anyone who regards Steven Pinker and this anarchistic asshole as intellectual peers is a fucking moron.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/280 "2025-09-23T15:06:06Z")

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Pinker is a piece of shit who lends legitimacy to Nazis.

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