# I Pit Martin Hyde **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2021, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407 "2021-06-16T16:18:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/242 "2021-07-14T21:28:48Z")
They’ve already been quoted in this thread, but, seriously: > [@Martin Hyde, you're a fucking idiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/80): > > Also, the majority of this board is nothing but the representation of the worst and most despicable section of America. Degenerates, the mentally ill, the unwashed masses of extreme leftism that are literally a cancer upon mainstream society. The _more_ credible I’m held by a bunch of degenerates the worse off I am as a person. > [@Martin Hyde, you're a fucking idiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/277): > > I think most people, Bricker and John Mace and et al don’t recognize how patently insane this place is. Or maybe they just feel it would be wrong to point out to the madhouse the nature of its residents. > > I don’t feel that way. This is a poster who has for years (decades, really) by his own admission held the majority of the board in open contempt and readily admits that some of the vitriol in his replies are a half step removed from trolling. And has been repeatedly crossed the line attacking posters or groups based on their ethnicity. I know some people want to be “fair” or “see things from both sides” but as far as I’m concerned, that’s just another way of asserting a lazy form of moral superiority by simplistically assuming there must be a just and fair middle ground than doing the work to see that one ‘side’ may actually just be not only wrong but a once and continuing asshole. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/243 "2021-07-14T21:39:17Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > All that said, I’ll reiterate that his underlying arguments are not exceptionally right wing; in fact they are rather ordinary (and thinly sourced, though well substantiated). I don’t have a problem with, “The irony it burns” in the pit - though it probably wasn’t best practice. But MH received far more intense vitreol here, which I thought was disproportionate. I don’t necessarily think it’s that his views were way out of the mainstream, it’s that he tone policed people who had nasty things to say about absolutely horrible acts of mass abuse and murder. And then acted like everyone else was going off the rails for calling him on it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/244 "2021-07-14T21:44:02Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I know some people want to be “fair” or “see things from both sides” but as far as I’m concerned, that’s just another way of asserting a lazy form of moral superiority by simplistically assuming there must be a just and fair middle ground than doing the work to see that one ‘side’ may actually just be not only wrong but a once and continuing asshole. I don’t traffic in false equivalence. I’m aware that Martin doesn’t like most of the posters here, but so what? Plenty of the arguments he makes are reasonable and ordinary. By way of comparison, Sam Stone has a superior skillset to Martin, but Sam’s point of reference is something like the National Review, while Martin’s is… ordinary American. So oddly Martin posts more useful material now. It was different a decade or so ago. As an example, if you want to cover the topic of genocide, there’s nothing wrong with saying that Pol Pot’s policies of murder are far worse than the still horrifying sterilization policies practiced over the past century towards certain groups. Both are bad, but only a depraved person would draw an equivalence. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > I don’t necessarily think it’s that his views were way out of the mainstream, it’s that he tone policed people who had nasty things to say about absolutely horrible acts of mass abuse and murder. And then acted like everyone else was going off the rails for calling him on it. I’d have to dig deeper into the discussions to evaluate this. What I was seeing was poorly sourced claims that Martin was minimizing genocide when in fact that was an unfair characterization, substituting repetition for substantiation. I daresay most people would perceive such attacks as cheap shots. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/245 "2021-07-14T22:12:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I don’t traffic in false equivalence Just false impartiality? There’s a not insignificant number of old school posters who, in an attempt to be or at least appear impartial, will give a greater benefit of the doubt to viewpoints or posters they don’t personally agree with. The intention may be noble - to avoid unconscious bias from coloring one’s judgment. But the effect is quite often the opposite. It’s something I’ve certainly been guilty of but bias is bias whether or not the intent is to avoid it. And it’s something the board culture has been dealing with. Many of the board’s conservatives have not flounced because it is unfriendly, despite their claims, but because they were not as often been accorded that thumb on the scales. Certainly, MH has claimed people are drawing a false equivalence. And in some cases in this thread and in the associated threads, that’s happened. But it’s certainly not been the general rule and reading false equivalence into it smacks of that sort of false impartiality. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/246 "2021-07-14T22:12:59Z")
It’s ironic that, in the 15 years since he posted those quotes, the Overton window has shifted such that, from the point of view of his own party’s leadership, HE is now part of the “unwashed masses of extreme leftism” by virtue of holding positions like “racism exists” and “democracy is good”. One more reason it must suck to be him. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/247 "2021-07-14T22:14:33Z")
If you think genocide is important, _and it is_, then it’s also important to engage with people who have ordinary median American sentiments, if only to familiarize yourself with what people know, what they don’t know, and what they believe. Right-wing gimmickry matters comparatively less. So Martin’s POV is useful; shouting it down as genocide minimization is unhelpful and counterproductive. Then again, I wasn’t rushing into this conversation (armed with my couple of books on the subject) so I can’t claim sainthood. Simulpost! ETA: Thing.Fish: Yes, agreed. [Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob): I plead innocent, but your point about false impartiality is worth making. I’m not buying the, “Lazy form of moral superiority” angle, since denouncing the unjust carries its own pleasures, and furthermore I’d say that leaning against your own ideas is a good thing. That said… my thinking over the past year or so has been shaped by Stuart Steven’s [It Was All A Lie](https://www.npr.org/2020/08/11/901274491/veteran-gop-strategist-takes-on-trump-and-his-party-in-it-was-all-a-lie), and frankly I have a much dimmer view the liberal/conservative divide here than I used to. Which is why I’m carving out a space for Ordinary American POVs, as opposed to American movement conservatism, which has been shown to be shot through with disingenuous commentary. I thought I was having an actual conversation with conservatives for the past 10-30 years: I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/248 "2021-07-14T22:35:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I thought I was having an actual conversation with conservatives for the past 10-30 years: I was wrong. It’s sad, but true. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/249 "2021-07-14T22:42:40Z")
Personally, I found that he is a self admitted troll in this thread, as well as his casual disbelief in the experiences of the other posters infuriating. > [@To those setting off fireworks: Fuck you, you fucking FUCKS!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-those-setting-off-fireworks-fuck-you-you-fucking-fucks/945693/166): > > Frankly as someone who never sets off fireworks, the more nonsense complaints I see about them online and in social media, the more likely I am to buy a fuck ton of them next year and let them off for weeks out of spite. Whether he actually does so or not, that’s troll-thought right there. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/250 "2021-07-14T22:42:44Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > it’s that he tone policed people who had nasty things to say about absolutely horrible acts of mass abuse and murder. And then acted like everyone else was going off the rails for calling him on it. He also attacked people for misrepresenting what he was saying; while seriously misrepresenting what they were saying, and refusing to address it when that was pointed out to him. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > What I was seeing was poorly sourced claims that Martin was minimizing genocide when in fact that was an unfair characterization, substituting repetition for substantiation. I daresay most people would perceive such attacks as cheap shots. I don’t think it was an unfair characterization, though backing up the accuracy of that pattern would involve quoting a whole lot of posts, any one of which taken individually might have been innocuous. And what I was also seeing was Martin Hyde clearly saying, in more than one post, that while he thought the specific techniques used in the particular schools were awful he thought the underlying aim of cultural genocide was just fine. > [@Many hundreds of unmarked graves of Indigenous children discovered at Canadian residential schools](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/133): > > it can’t be entirely denied that it also lead to some positive outcomes for native children that were denied previous generations–specifically certain educational opportunities. Education, the acquisition of literacy, competence at mathematics and formal logic have a lot of benefits for a person’s life, even if it is mixed with other, bad things. which could by itself be taken to mean he thought those things could be grafted on to the First Nations cultures without harming them, which if done in an entirely different fashion and voluntarily might have been a point (if one ignores the implication that those cultures had no education of their own), but then there’s this exchange (sorry for the length of quote, but I think the context’s necessary to make the point): > [@How is genocide defined, with an emphasis on cultural genocide?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/152): > > I’d certainly agree there’s high poverty rates on reservations > [. . .] > > Going back to the “penned” comment above, is one solution to provide funding (through individual grants) to native families that want to relocate off-reservation? There’s probably a non-zero number that are stuck there out of generational poverty that would likely do better living almost anywhere else. [thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)[Guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/g/Registered) [Jun 17](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/172) > [@How is genocide defined, with an emphasis on cultural genocide?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/152): > > Going back to the “penned” comment above, is one solution to provide funding (through individual grants) to native families that want to relocate off-reservation? There’s probably a non-zero number that are stuck there out of generational poverty that would likely do better living almost anywhere else. Your solution to community destruction is to finish breaking up the communities? > [@How is genocide defined, with an emphasis on cultural genocide?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/173): > > I think a better question is how many want to leave the reservation if they had the financial means to do so? The reservations are often not even anywhere remotely close to the tribe’s historic lands, and many of the people living on them probably would enjoy life elsewhere. Giving them that freedom is a virtuous act. Largely because we, collectively, put these people on the reservations, they deserve the agency to decide if they want to leave. > [@How is genocide defined, with an emphasis on cultural genocide?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/174): > > Give them the money, and let them choose whether they want to leave their existing communities, or to use it to improve those communities and their lives within them. Giving them the money only if they choose to leave is not giving them “agency.” – to which I got crickets. Now it’s possible Martin\_Hyde just doesn’t understand that getting as many tribe members as possible to leave tribal lands (which, as was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, in many cases are ancestral lands; and in at least some of the other cases have been held as communities for multiple generations) and instead scatter as individuals into the country as a whole would be an act of cultural destruction. But that is most definitely what he’s recommending. He just wants the culture to be destroyed by financial means, instead of by kidnapping and torture. And then, when people objected to this, he claimed they were calling him a Nazi. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/251 "2021-07-15T00:04:08Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’d have to dig deeper into the discussions to evaluate this. What I was seeing was poorly sourced claims that Martin was minimizing genocide when in fact that was an unfair characterization, substituting repetition for substantiation. I daresay most people would perceive such attacks as cheap shots. This would be an example of tone policing: > [@Many hundreds of unmarked graves of Indigenous children discovered at Canadian residential schools](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/133): > > This ties into, in my opinion, a problem with how history is understood in modern times. There’s basically two, deeply flawed, ways that I observe most people talk about historical actions and figures. One is “hagiography” where we engage in mindless worship of our forebears, and aggressively resist any critical analysis of their failures. Another is “history by screech” which is where people, outraged by people long dead not living up to modern standards, believe the primary analysis of their l… He wasn’t factually disagreeing with anything, he just thought that people were “screeching” too much about genocide. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > If you think genocide is important, _and it is_ , then it’s also important to engage with people who have ordinary median American sentiments, if only to familiarize yourself with what people know, what they don’t know, and what they believe. Right-wing gimmickry matters comparatively less. So Martin’s POV is useful; shouting it down as genocide minimization is unhelpful and counterproductive. This I agree with in general, and I don’t think debates on forums like this accomplish a whole lot when it comes to raising awareness about genocide one way or another. The only thing I think is really productive is personal stories. Genocide and genocide minimization are both only possible because people are capable of dehumanizing “different” groups of people. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/252 "2021-07-15T01:14:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > So Martin’s POV is useful; shouting it down as genocide minimization is unhelpful and counterproductive. I think it’s also unhelpful and counterproductive to let POV’s to go unchallenged. If Martin’s allowed to explain his – and I agree that he should be – why should others not be allowed to explain where and why they differ, including pointing out when something reads like minimization, or like agreement with the goal of a crime if not with its methods? People rarely change their minds in the middle of discussions, on messageboards or elsewhere (though it has happened); and of course aren’t guaranteed to change them thinking about it later on in the middle of the night, or over the course of years, though that happens a lot more often. But people whose points of view are never challenged are highly unlikely to change them at all. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/253 "2021-07-15T02:18:36Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > I know Shodan got a lot of kudos for his posts in non-political threads, so at first that’s where I thought Roo would be going. Then she gets into how she misses ‘both sides’ being represented, so it’s almost as though she thinks Shodan was a worthwhile contributor in political threads. She doesn’t quite say it, but she says enough to let one connect the dots. Nope, I just said controversial posts. I liked seeing both sides of controversial issues, not necessarily political issues. I didn’t read that many of Shodan’s political posts at the time since I wasn’t much into politics at the time. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > However, on review I saw that almost all those posters were objecting to perceived arbitrary and/or biased moderation, with only H & R actually arguing that Shodan’s posts had value. But all of those people must have thought his posts had value, and most of those posters post on political views more than I did at that time. > [@](#): > > I agree with **Dallas Jones** , **Isosleepy** , **Crafter\_Man** , **Fotheringay-Phipps,** **pool** , **SlackerInc** and others that Shodan was targeted for his views. I also agree that it’s like walking over landmines to post here. I don’t agree with any of them on much else. I don’t agree with them on much else says that I don’t agree with the politics of the people, I’ll have to say that it’s a weird feeling to be reading a thread and have your name pop up out of context. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/254 "2021-07-15T04:45:30Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > This would be an example of tone policing: I don’t consider that tone policing. I agree with Martin that History by screech (or litany) is a thing. That section of his post was general and generally speaking unexceptional. I don’t consider it to be genocide minimizing, as he was accused of. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think it’s also unhelpful and counterproductive to let POV’s to go unchallenged. If Martin’s allowed to explain his – and I agree that he should be – why should others not be allowed to explain where and why they differ, including pointing out when something reads like minimization, or like agreement with the goal of a crime if not with its methods? Well, we’re here to fight ignorance. All that is great. Except that part where someone calls Martin a genocide mininimizer, smearing him by association with genocide deniers. It’s a cheap shot. (It’s also true that Martin punches below the belt, which undermines his points.) Indeed, I’d argue that Martin makes a better foil than some of the other more ideological movement conservative posters. Because he traffics in fairly typical Americana perspectives. Generally speaking, nothing is settled in GD. But the better threads lay out the main lines of argument, which can be useful. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > This I agree with in general, and I don’t think debates on forums like this accomplish a whole lot when it comes to raising awareness about genocide one way or another. It’s not about raising awareness. It’s about understanding ordinary points of view so that you can figure out a way to address them, without unnecessary rancor. You know, effectively. Hey, I’m all for pitting Nazis. I just think smears are counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/255 "2021-07-15T06:48:35Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > But, when a somewhat left-of-center poster makes a weak argument, it’s often - not always - left alone. It actually creates an opening to have a bit of a conversation. And left-of-center posters are usually more receptive to thinking through their arguments than our conservatives are. And if you decide to tighten up your arguments a little, that’s a win for everybody. Conversely, I’m actually likely to learn more from engaging with left-of-center posters. You might point out an angle on something I didn’t see. Win-win. > > There are tons of great reasons to pit Marty. “He said he’s just here to slap sheep” isn’t one of them. If that was your intent, then I would say it was a lousy one. You accused me of ignoring one of my underlying principles. I saw that as an attack on my character. I’ve been told this before, that someone was just trying to inspire me to be better. So I’ll give similar advice: if that’s you’re intent, say that from the outset. And then don’t take an antagonistic position. Offer advice in how to actually shore up the argument. I still say that saying you’re here to “slap sheep” is an admission of trolling. It’s saying you’re here to hurt people, rather than debate. Following that with the utterly inexcusable use of a mental illness to attack people only reinforces that. I’m very much hoping the new rules will include not being able to call someone “mentally ill” as an insult. It’s not quite the same as finding a specific illness you know the person has, but it’s the same sort of thing. Mental illness is not an attack, any more than it would be to call someone gay or black or whatever. It’s horribly wrong to say that shit. And someone who won’t apologize even after being told that doesn’t deserve my sympathy. It actually angers me that people are still trying to defend him after this. Again, he told us he was a bad person. We shouldn’t keep acting like he’s just misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/256 "2021-07-15T07:21:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I agree with Martin that History by screech (or litany) is a thing. That section of his post was general and generally speaking unexceptional. I don’t consider it to be genocide minimizing, as he was accused of. Perhaps that is the problem. I would say that accusing people of “history by screech” is in fact minimizing whatever it is they are discussing. You can’t bring up that concept “generally”—something in the thread had to be the reason that was brought up. I can’t agree that arguing something is “genocide minimization” must be off the table, either. That’s a factual claim. It’s like saying that you can’t tell someone that something they said is racist, because they might interpret that as you calling them a racist. If the problem you have is that what they said came off as minimizing genocide, then no discussion can happen if you can’t express that. It’s inherently a part of it. If you automatically take that to mean they’re calling you a Nazi, then the discussion can’t continue. Discussions of things like this are inherently uncomfortable. It will involve pointing out that some types of thinking are the underlying problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/257 "2021-07-15T12:40:54Z")
Not to mention —- calling someone mentally ill because they sought therapy is like calling someone unhealthy because they exercise and eat an balanced diet. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/258 "2021-07-15T13:14:17Z")
Yeah, the “liberals are disconnected from regular people” thing is played out, too. I know that’s an old Dope trope but it’s pretty dumb at this point. Me? I grew up in rural Arkansas and work in the oil and gas industry in Texas. I have been exposed and continue to be exposed the viewpoints of “ordinary” conservative Americans every day from co-workers, family, and a few friends. I daresay that’s true for many if not most posters here. Exposure to opposing viewpoints is not exactly in short supply in today’s America. The idea that bad faith arguments and posters should be given extra tolerance or accorded some special relevance since they are not as common on the board is condescending not only to those who apparently need the additional exposure but also to the board’s conservatives, as if they are special snowflakes who need the special treatment. As seen very clearly above in the thread, MH at least certainly doesn’t need it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/259 "2021-07-15T15:23:20Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Except that part where someone calls Martin a genocide mininimizer Maybe I should do that compilation of his posts doing that. But not today, this may be the only dry day in two weeks and while the fields are soggy I could at least get some mowing done. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/260 "2021-07-15T18:29:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Perhaps that is the problem. I would say that accusing people of “history by screech” is in fact minimizing whatever it is they are discussing. You can’t bring up that concept “generally”—something in the thread had to be the reason that was brought up. … If the problem you have is that what they said came off as minimizing genocide, then no discussion can happen if you can’t express that. Do you see the conflict there? I’m not playing word games: there are varieties of simplistic history, and Martin IDd two of them. You need that sort of conceptual building block if you want to have a discussion. So IDing “History by screech”, without pointing fingers is the sort of thing necessary for decent discussion. The problem with saying Martin minimized genocide was twofold: a) He added plenty of caveats to avoid giving that impression, b) When he challenged people to back up their claim, they couldn’t. Implying somebody is a Nazi is a big deal. Doing so without substantiation is a bigger deal. There are ways to say that Martin’s argument tends to dismiss the importance of cultural genocide (something which on balance I don’t agree with) while adding appropriate caveats and context. Has Martin hit below the belt in the Pit? Yes. Have others made cheap shots on Martin before that? I believe so. Is characterizing someone’s argument as not taking cultural genocide seriously enough fair game? Sure. I’m not objecting to that. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The idea that bad faith arguments and posters should be given extra tolerance or accorded some special relevance since they are not as common on the board is condescending not only to those who apparently need the additional exposure but also to the board’s conservatives, as if they are special snowflakes who need the special treatment. Like I said, I’m wary of bad faith arguments made by movement conservatives. Ordinary arguments are another matter. Look, most casual and not-so-casual readers of the news are going to equate genocide with murder. Martin in fact didn’t do that: he acknowledged up front that cultural genocide was a thing, and a bad thing. He mangled his history a little, but we’re here to fight ignorance and that’s the sort of thing that deserves factual correction more than brickbats. [thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust): Does Martin give sufficient weight to cultural genocide? I would guess not. But his posts are full of caveats that Native Americans have indeed been subject to mistreatment. That means that discussion is in order more than pitchforks. Furthermore, if you want to pit Martin for that that, you should acknowledge the attempts he made to qualify his arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407/261 "2021-07-16T01:24:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > If you think genocide is important, _and it is_ , then it’s also important to engage with people who have ordinary median American sentiments, if only to familiarize yourself with what people know, what they don’t know, and what they believe. Right-wing gimmickry matters comparatively less. So Martin’s POV is useful; shouting it down as genocide minimization is unhelpful and counterproductive. …nope. We don’t need to engage with people who have ordinary median American sentiments (AKA white people). We can tell them to fuck the fuck right off and that’s perfectly fine. And if someone like Martin is peddling outright genocide denial then “shouting it down as genocide minimization” is the _very least_ I would expect from genuine allies. I’m an indigenous person that isn’t even allowed to post in the thread about the death of thousands of indigenous children and you are here passionately posting in defence of the free speech of _that guy?_ You can fuck the fuck right off as well. Civility is a tool of white supremacy. And Martin wields it so effectively here that you can’t even see what he has been doing. This was his first post in the original thread. > [@Many hundreds of unmarked graves of Indigenous children discovered at Canadian residential schools](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/93): > > So **being deeply unfamiliar** with the history of these Canadian residential schools, what is exactly being brought to attention here? I’ve seen cursory reporting on this, **always in ominous terms.** Is there any **actual substance to allegations** that these children were murdered or etc? Or is it more the case that they died of natural causes and were just buried in unmarked graves? > > From the rhetoric in the thread, it sounds like the residential schools were awful. But it likewise sounds like people have known the specific ways in which they were awful for a very long time, even if it wasn’t “talked about a lot” in polite society. Is the discovery of the mass graves more seen as a good starting point for a larger dialogue about the schools? If that is the case, it makes sense to me the attention it is getting. > > **But if it’s just outrage at the mass graves, it seems like it may lack historic context.** I think most people died and were buried in unmarked graves before modern times, and maybe even in present times outside of North America. I also do not believe it was ever common before modern times to ship bodies long distance at all. There are specific instances in which wealthier or figures of state had their bodies shipped, or the infamous stories of famous sea captains dying and being brought home inside a cask of liquor and such, **but most people historically were buried very close to where they died.** In some cases the family might erect a small memorial at home in remembrance of them. Martin posted on a subject he conceded he was deeply unfamiliar with. He talked about how the limited reporting he saw made it sound ominous but cast doubt there was substance to the allegations. He thinks that this thing that he admits he **knows nothing about** sounds awful. Then proceeds to write word-after-word concocting fantasy scenarios that are at odds with all the evidence he hasn’t bothered to read. Saying that this is being dismissive of genocide is being **polite**. Because after that Martin doubled down, then tripled down in thread-after-thread, and then finally took the mask off in **this** thread. This isn’t Martin being ignorant of the facts. **He knows exactly what he is doing.** He masks it by writing lots of words and caveats and being polite. It is **counter-productive** to engage with Martin on his own terms. It is **unhelpful** for indigenous people to be told by people like you that it is “important to engage with people who have ordinary median American sentiments.” As if we haven’t been trying to do that for fucking ever. Get some fucking perspective for fucks sakes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-martin-hyde/944407.md?page=14)