# I pit misogyny/sexism on Twitter **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 22, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978 "2014-05-22T01:35:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/181 "2014-05-26T22:41:40Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > That’s partly it, but also it’s that modern feminism is not about relatively sensible things like ‘women should have the right to vote’ or ‘women should have the right to be engineers, professors, doctors, unionized factory workers , etc.).’ (I’m not a big fan of voting in general, in a completely gender neutral sense, but that’s a separate story). modern feminism, in large part, is largely about a specific set of ideological claims that a lot of people, including many women, reject. To take a few examples, ‘women should have the legal right to abortion’, ‘gender differences are mostly due to social conditioning rather than innate biology’, ‘women and men are the same with respect to most cognitive and behavioural traits’, ‘women who choose to submit to their husbands, as the Bible suggests, are brainwashed idiots’, and so forth. Feminism is heavily fragmented now. I’ve witnessed truly spectacular blog wars between feminist sites mutually and definitively writing off the other as misogynists. This stuff can rival the silly old Catholic church nonsense where you had 5 popes who all excommunicated each other. Still, my point is that feminism is very broad, and encompasses a wide range of mutually incompatible perspectives. For instance, while I’d say I’m pro choice, I’d only give a “partially true” label to 2 and 3. They’re far too complex of issues to boil down to a single statement, especially once you mix in intersex and trans issues. The latter is a touchy issue, and it’s definitely a popular line of thought in certain radical feminist circles, but I personally don’t begrudge anyone who chooses to be a housewife or defer to her husband, religious or no, as long as it was her choice to do so. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/182 "2014-05-26T23:21:15Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Feminism is heavily fragmented now. Absolutely, and there are self described “feminists” whose arguments go far beyond perfectly logical and laudable stuff like “equal pay for equal work” and wander into “what the hell?” territory. Take Natalie Dylan, for example. This is the young woman that is attempting to sell her virginity online in order to pay for her schooling in women’s studies. She claims that this is “fighting the patriarchy”. I suppose the logic, if you can call it that, is that women have the right to do what they want with their bodies. There is some truth to that, but she is in essence saying that prostitution is a vehicle for empowering women. Historically, the world’s oldest profession doesn’t have a great track record regarding that. It’s self styled feminists like Ms Dylan that make people loathe to describe themselves as “feminists”, even if they firmly believe in the basic ideas that started the movement in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/183 "2014-05-26T23:36:45Z")
Or those ones we linked to awhile ago who insisted that all men are evil (seriously!) and that sexual intercourse was not only unnatural, but that it was rape. Even if it was consensual. Completely batshit. No wonder women are turned off from calling themselves “feminists”. Anarchy and communism, however, are fucked up no matter how you look at it. It never works because let’s face it – human beings are assholes. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/184 "2014-05-27T03:59:50Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I’m so thoroughly beholden to sincerity that I tend to miss subtelties, i.e. there doesn’t seem to be much of a gap between wanting to be treated like a princess and thinking that hereditary monarchy is a fine idea. For the same reason, the trolling wasn’t so obvious to me. I’m very literal. You do understand that is not a virtue when it comes to debating in these leagues. And you must forgive me, but an ideology is of little use for me, if my True Anarchy (or whatever ideological entity) exists only at the sufferance of the Powers of Left and Right who can get together to crush it at will. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/185 "2014-05-27T16:29:37Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > This has nothing to do with the grinding down of ideas. It’s pure observation and logic regarding human nature and economics, nothing more nothing less. > > The idea of a fair (by some definition) and utopian (somewhat) society is a nice idea and at minimum a large middle class would be great, consolidation of wealth and power certainly can result in pain and misery for many and too much consolidation is probably not a sustainable system. > > It would also be nice if bees didn’t sting us. > Where your formula goes completely bat-shit insane is where you think the guy sweeping the floors is the “real work” and the guy with ideas, long hours and taking risks with his own money is the “boss” and that isn’t “real work”. Observation of what, exactly? Observe that humans are social animals and that mutual aid is a very common, almost instinctive response in times of crisis. I mentioned Hungary’s 1956 Uprising earlier. The rebels threw the Stalinists out of the workplaces, but didn’t start introducing capitalism. They formed workers’ councils. Did you know about the celebrated [Common Ground Collective](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_Collective), an anarchist response to Hurricane Katrina, which is still functional despite the treachery of Brandon Darby? Did you see the praise for [Occupy Sandy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Sandy)? Out of all the examples I have cited, what has failed due to human nature? The constant use of this “human nature” canard is, I think, an example of the thought-control-in-democratic-societies that I mentioned. Sure, there is debate about the Spanish anarchist experience, with Iain McKay [assembling a massive article](http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secI8.html) loaded with citations and empirical evidence to argue that the Spanish anarchists were highly successful, innovative, and are an example to emulate today. [Bryan Caplan argues otherwise](http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/spain.txt), but interestingly, while I agree with him on certain (other) topics, I’m not sure he’s intellectually trustworthy. In any case, if the anarchists were doomed (and soon) on their own, why risk troops and treasure to destroy them? > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Of course you agree with those four theses I put forward: you’re a feminist. It should come as no surprise to you that I strongly _disagree_ with them, as do a lot of people (men and women), and that’s the reason why many of us refer to ourselves as broadly opposed to feminism. This is probably neither the time nor place to debate feminism, but suffice it to say that there are a lot of us who think modern feminism involves some claims that are highly dubious morally and intellectually. > > As for workers self management, my point is that sort of thing seems to thrive best in context like Yugoslavia where you have a very strong government indeed. I’m all about workers ownership, it’s the ‘no government’ thing that I think is foolish. “No government” is less apt than “no state.” Nation-states are artificial ways to divide working people who really have much in common, and have no need to fight one another over their rulers’ spats. Also, workers’ self management obviously is more enduring when the state is in support, but consider the Zapatistas and the Argentine recuperated businesses, which endure where the state is in opposition, but unable/unwilling to destroy. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Or those ones we linked to awhile ago who insisted that all men are evil (seriously!) and that sexual intercourse was not only unnatural, but that it was rape. Even if it was consensual. Completely batshit. No wonder women are turned off from calling themselves “feminists”. > > Anarchy and communism, however, are fucked up no matter how you look at it. It never works because let’s face it – human beings are assholes. Such feminist ideas don’t have much relevance for most feminists, do they? Feminists are under no obligation to defend them, just as anarchists recognize that tactics are personal decisions, and disagreement is fine and expected. Also, “anarchy and communism” mean many different things, with very different results, often contradicting your statement. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > You do understand that is not a virtue when it comes to debating in these leagues. > [@](#): > > And you must forgive me, but an ideology is of little use for me, if my True Anarchy (or whatever ideological entity) exists only at the sufferance of the Powers of Left and Right who can get together to crush it at will. That depends on the political climate and context, and it’s why organization is a matter of life and death. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/186 "2014-05-27T16:58:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And to answer a question: I bring **Cesario** up so stalker- **Fenris** doesn’t get to, the way he does with **BPC** ’s ex. If I were you I’d show that dastardly **Fenris** what for and beat him at his own game by making, “I like **Cesario** ” as my signature and show it in every post. That’d put him in his place. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/187 "2014-05-27T18:13:59Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > That depends on the political climate and context, and it’s why organization is a matter of life and death. Translation: I’m conveniently ignoring this fatal flaw of my ridiculous ideology, which is fine because it’s really nothing but an exercise in sanctimonious masturbation anyway. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/188 "2014-05-27T18:28:47Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Translation: I’m conveniently ignoring this fatal flaw of my ridiculous ideology, which is fine because it’s really nothing but an exercise in sanctimonious masturbation anyway. No, the translation, or perhaps elaboration, is that anarchist and related practices are very threatening to the powers that be. Totalitarians, and perhaps most authoritarians, will likely respond with (attempted) overwhelming force. Anarchists must plan, prepare, and behave accordingly. The situation is different in different political climates, i.e. Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/189 "2014-05-27T18:35:11Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > No, the translation, or perhaps elaboration, is that anarchist and related practices are very threatening to the powers that be. Totalitarians, and perhaps most authoritarians, will likely respond with (attempted) overwhelming force. Anarchists must plan, prepare, and behave accordingly. The situation is different in different political climates, i.e. Mexico. That’s super interesting. I’m sure you guys will set up a utopian society for us all any day now. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/190 "2014-05-27T18:39:40Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > That depends on the political climate and context, and it’s why organization is a matter of life and death. And I can’t think of anybody better at organization than anarchists. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/191 "2014-05-27T18:57:24Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > That’s super interesting. I’m sure you guys will set up a utopian society for us all any day now. We’re not utopians. > [@armedmonkey](#): > > And I can’t think of anybody better at organization than anarchists. I see your hackneyed insult and point you towards all the things I’ve already pointed you towards, demonstrating anarchist organizing. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/192 "2014-05-27T18:59:11Z")
I also point you towards[this thread, begun today in Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=724465), on the topic of Anarchists in Catalonia and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/193 "2014-05-27T19:01:49Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > We’re not utopians. I have faith in you. After all, you’ve identified the need to plan a response to overwhelming force _and_ can list multiple small groups that managed to live in a quasi-anarchist community without immediately dying of exposure or getting murdered by warlords, so I’d say all the heavy lifting is pretty much done. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/194 "2014-05-27T19:03:16Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I also point you towards[this thread, begun today in Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=724465), on the topic of Anarchists in Catalonia and elsewhere. Rather than read a GD thread, I went ahead and punched myself in the scrotum instead. Less painful and more useful. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/195 "2014-05-27T19:34:30Z")
It was less painful because that wasn’t your scrotum. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/196 "2014-05-27T20:02:27Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > That depends on the political climate and context, and it’s why organization is a matter of life and death. I thought the context was random trolls on Twitter. Was I mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/197 "2014-05-27T20:46:31Z")
Social media is ruining society. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/198 "2014-05-27T21:06:55Z")
**OurLordPeace** , let’s walk through some examples, if your ideas are solid it will be clear. Let’s start with a basic idea, that machines that improve farming efficiency are a good thing in general (if you disagree speak up). Also, pretend that combines have not been invented yet. How would combines come to exist in your world of anarchy and workers’ councils? Can you describe the process? What was their motivation to create combines? Did they raise money? From whom? How did they make decisions about trade-offs between functionality and cost to produce? etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/199 "2014-05-27T22:10:28Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > . Anarchists must plan, prepare, and behave accordingly. What if I don’t want to? YOU CAN’T MAKE ME. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978/200 "2014-05-27T23:34:03Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > “No government” is less apt than “no state.” Nation-states are artificial ways to divide working people who really have much in common, and have no need to fight one another over their rulers’ spats. Also, workers’ self management obviously is more enduring when the state is in support, but consider the Zapatistas and the Argentine recuperated businesses, which endure where the state is in opposition, but unable/unwilling to destroy. The Mexican government could wipe out the Zapatistas tomorrow if they wanted. The fact remains that the only _large scale_ experiment with worker’s self management (and a fairly successful one, at that) happened within the context of a strong, highly authoritarian one-party state. (And one which eventually fell apart not for economic reasons but for ethno-nationalist reasons, which casts a lot of doubt on your claim that ‘nation states are artificial constructs.’ Clearly, Croat, Serb, and Slovene working people didn’t all think that they were part of the same ‘nation’). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-misogyny-sexism-on-twitter/688978.md?page=11)