# I Pit "Modern Islam"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 17, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710 "2014-09-17T04:10:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/1 "2014-09-17T04:10:45Z")
Why can’t women dress normal? Why can’t people show the likeness of Mohammed? Why do your fathers condone the killing of their daughters in the name of family “honor?” Why does everyone have to be Muslim? Why does your religion still dictate how your society is run? Why didn’t you embrace Enlightenment ideas, like secularism and science? **Why do you allow the fringe minority to destroy your image**? Why is your loyalty to the religion blinding you to the realities of the 21st century, and the brutality done in your name?
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/2 "2014-09-17T04:23:45Z")
Well, Modern Islam is generally ok with most of that (except for the secularism and portrayal of Muhammad). It seems like your complaint isn’t with Islamic modernism but with neo-Salafi Islamists.
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### Author:  [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/3 "2014-09-17T05:02:27Z")
You can ask your questions on a [live chat here](http://www.islamreligion.com/chat).
Somehow, though, I think you will find the answers unsatisfying.
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### Author:  [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/4 "2014-09-17T05:44:18Z")
Unless there is some particular sect called “Modern Islam” that I’m unaware of and which requires all female followers to wear British royalty hats, I must protest against the notion that all Muslim women don’t get to “dress normal.”
I’ve lived in Muslim-majority countries for all but 2 years since late 1993, and virtually all of the women I’ve seen dress quite normally. Yes, there was the occasional BMO in the grocery store in Cairo, and that did seem oppressive, but (a) BMOs aren’t exactly “modern” Islam; many Muslim women don’t even veil at all; and (b) jilboobs are pretty common amongst those who do veil.
Don’t know what a BMO is? Never heard of jilbooks? Then I submit you don’t know enough about Muslim sartorial matters to have an informed opinion.
BTW, BMO = Black Moving Object and is reserved for the severest Wahhabi style of all black tent, grids over the eyes, and black gloves.
As to jilboobs, use Google Images and see for yourself. Be careful though, when I tried it the images across the top were NSFW.
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### Author:  [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/5 "2014-09-17T06:11:05Z")
I’m not a big authority on Islam but I do know the “honor killing” issue you raised is more cultural than religious.
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### Author:  [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/6 "2014-09-17T06:20:55Z")
> [@Stringbean](#):
>
> **Why do you allow the fringe minority to destroy your image**?
A better question is why are you only listening to that fringe minority?
What, exactly, do practitioners of “Modern Islam” need to be doing in your opinion? Condemning terrorists? Done. Joining the military? Done. Not kill their neighbors? Done. There’s 1.6 **billion** Muslims in the world and roughly 6.6 million in the US alone. If they were all out for blood you’d _know._
> [@](#):
>
> Muslim leaders in Britain have condemned the extremist group Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis), expressing their “grave concern” at continued violence in its name.
>
> Representatives from both the Sunni and Shia groups in the UK met at the Palace of Westminster and relayed their message that the militant group does not represent the majority of Muslims.
> [@](#):
>
> Two prominent Muslim leaders are urging Muslim men not to join the radical jihadists.
>
> “The public have to be critical. This is not about [establishing] a Caliphate [Islamic State]; but [a group] working for its own cause and gains from a sectarian issue,” said Nahdlatul Ulama executive council chair, Slamet Effendy Yusuf.
>
> The Nahdlatul Ulama is one of the largest Islamic organizations in the world and concentrates on traditional Islam.
> [@](#):
>
> Muhammadiyah, an organization with 29 million members, is more modern, well-known for educational activities, and avoids politics. Secretary Abdul Mu’ti said ISIS does not represent Islam.
> [@ISNA](#):
>
> ISIS actions have never been representative nor in accordance to the mainstream teachings of Islam. This act of murder cannot be justified according to the faith practiced by over 1.6 billion people.
[From here](http://www.globalresearch.ca/muslim-leaders-worldwide-condemn-isis/5397364)
And definitely check out the homepage for [ISNA](http://www.isna.net/), particularly their international news section.
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/7 "2014-09-17T06:30:14Z")
> [@Oldeb](#):
>
> . . . What, exactly, do practitioners of “Modern Islam” need to be doing in your opinion? Condemning terrorists? Done. Joining the military? Done. Not kill their neighbors? Done. There’s 1.6 **billion** Muslims in the world and roughly 6.6 million in the US alone. If they were all out for blood you’d _know._ . . .
They should be demanding real change and real reform. They should be “out for blood” in shutting down the terrorists. They should be reclaiming their religion from those who dirty it by extremism.
Granted, reform can take centuries…
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/8 "2014-09-17T06:35:06Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Why can’t women dress normal?
> Why does everyone have to be your religion?
> Why does your religion still dictate how your society is run?
> Why didn’t you embrace Enlightenment ideas, like secularism and science?
> Why do you allow the fringe minority to destroy your image?
> Why is your loyalty to the religion blinding you to the realities of the 21st century?
Shall we list _all_ the religions that this applies to?
CMC fnord!
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### Author:  [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/9 "2014-09-17T06:53:28Z")
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> They should be demanding real change and real reform.
Demanding from whom, exactly? The Muslim Pope? Who do you think is in a position to give ISIL a theology lesson? Who in that crowd of 1.6 billion do you think is in a position of global authority?
What needs reforming, exactly? What are those 6.6 million Americans doing with their religion that’s so terrible it must be stopped?
Are you of the same opinion that protestants the world over should be demanding real change and real reform for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church? If not, why?
What do want to see done that isn’t an argument against religion in general? And if it’s religion in general why bother singling Islam out in the first place?
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/10 "2014-09-17T06:58:11Z")
One can find both tolerant people and intolerant people in any religion, but it’s silly to pretend that intolerance isn’t far more common and dominant among Muslims than in the West. This isn’t intrinsic to Islam – many centuries ago, it was Islam that was “enlightened” compared with the West.
> [@Oldeb](#):
>
> What, exactly, do practitioners of “Modern Islam” need to be doing in your opinion? Condemning terrorists? Done. Joining the military? Done. Not kill their neighbors? Done. There’s 1.6 **billion** Muslims in the world and roughly 6.6 million in the US alone. If they were all out for blood you’d _know._
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Two prominent Muslim leaders are urging Muslim men not to join the radical jihadists.
Quotes showing tolerance usually come from Westernized Muslims. I remember a N.Y. Times op-ed by the then-PM of Malaysia, considered a moderate, in which he opposed militant jihadists … _because Muslims should first learn Western science **so they could build advanced weapons** _. :smack:
Your quote offers some insight. If Catholic bishops advised Christian men _not_ to become the equivalent of “radical jihadists”, would that be considered newsworthy? No, of course not.
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### Author:  [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/11 "2014-09-17T07:02:14Z")
Terrorism isn’t the biggest problem in the Islamic world. Violence and oppression in Islamic communities, structural and immediate, is far more often carried out by traditional figures and local governments.
Ah whatever. Let the “Islam is evil!!!” Vs. “all true Muslims agree 100% with western progressive pluralist morality!!!” argument continue.
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### Author:  [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/12 "2014-09-17T07:42:16Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> Quotes showing tolerance usually come from Westernized Muslims.
Ironically you picked the quote from [Nahdlatul Ulama](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahdlatul_Ulama), an Indonesian organization.
> [@](#):
>
> Your quote offers some insight. If Catholic bishops advised Christian men _not_ to become the equivalent of “radical jihadists”, would that be considered newsworthy? No, of course not.
ISIL is comparable to groups like the [Lord’s Resistance Army](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army), a “Christian” terrorist group. Both W. Bush and Obama have acted against the LRA, yet I don’t recall Christians needing to demand real change and real reform in order to prove theirs isn’t a religion of violence. It’s more about people (like the OP) who are familiar enough with Christianity to dismiss Kony’s claims of religion out of hand but when confronted with the unknown that’s Islam expect constant reassurance. It’s only not newsworthy because people here in the US (like the OP) don’t have the same paranoid fears about Christianity requiring it to be.
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### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/13 "2014-09-17T08:06:55Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> One can find both tolerant people and intolerant people in any religion, but it’s silly to pretend that intolerance isn’t far more common and dominant among Muslims than in the West.
Nobody was murdered over _Piss Christ_. Nobody started rioting when Jesus was drawn in an orgy with Ganesha and others. No Christian preacher goes on national TV to show how reasonable Christians are but, whoops! he actually believes the penalty for becoming a non-Christian is death. There are still shitty Christian laws on the books and shitty Christians who enforce them, but incidents like [this](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/11/oral-sex-jesus-statue-photo_n_5805174.html?ir=UK) are small fry.
> [@](#):
>
> This isn’t intrinsic to Islam – many centuries ago, it was Islam that was “enlightened” compared with the West.
Sure, there have been Christians just as bad in the past, but the assholes behind the Crusades and the Inquisition are long dead. If you’re comparing yourself to medieval Europe, you’ve already lost the argument.
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### Author:  [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/14 "2014-09-17T08:09:57Z")
ISIS and the LRA aren’t really a good comparison in any useful sense.
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/15 "2014-09-17T08:54:11Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> If you’re comparing yourself to medieval Europe, you’ve already lost the argument.
It is losing the argument to say something is Medieval when in fact some of the European Christians practiced burning of witches etc. into the 17th and 18th centuries, which are by no means “medieval.'” This is not even to mention the application in Africa of such teachings and witch killing using supposed Christian pretexts.
For me, I am tired of persons making statements about Islam and then showing that they know almost nothing about the majority of the Muslims living, but relying on narrow stereotypes from the Saudis and similar, that have little to do with the hundreds of millions of Muslims who do not live this way, and they complain as well about lack of statements which in fact exist (although maybe not translated for their convenience into the English, because of course if it is not said in the American English then it does not exist).
Perhaps I should post more often about the horrors of the very fact americans who walk around shooting people on the street, and how americans worship the guns, because of course it has happened so many times and we must then believe daily life in america is like this. This will have similar accuracy.
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### Author:  [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/16 "2014-09-17T09:48:19Z")
You’re a pretty good poster, Ramira.
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/17 "2014-09-17T12:39:12Z")
> [@nani](#):
>
> ISIS and the LRA aren’t really a good comparison in any useful sense.
Can you expound? I’m not doubting you, but there seem to be some strong parallels to me.
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### Author:  [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/18 "2014-09-17T12:39:27Z")
Women being forced to wear a certain type of clothing? How about the Amish?
The fact is that there is a certain very small percentage of those practicing Islam who are ultra-conservative and thugs. You can find that in Christianity just as easily.
The fact is that every religion draws a certain type of power-seeking person to attempt to impose their own beliefs on others. This isn’t even restricted to religion since the same thing can be found in bullies in schools and workplaces.
There are just some bad people in the world and they generally get all the press. You really don’t expect to see an article in the news about the Muslims quietly, peacefully and decently practicing their religion, do you?
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/19 "2014-09-17T13:13:42Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#):
>
> Women being forced to wear a certain type of clothing? How about the Amish? {…}
See also: [kosher wigs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheitel).
CMC fnord!
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/20 "2014-09-17T13:31:10Z")
> [@Stringbean](#):
>
> **Why do you allow the fringe minority to destroy your image**?
If you have ever traveled abroad, you might have been asked the same thing about Americans.
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