# I Pit "Modern Islam" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 17, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710 "2014-09-17T04:10:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/81 "2014-09-19T04:30:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > ETA:@\*\*ñañi \*\*: > > Well \*somebody \*is a history major 🙂 Haha, unfortunately, I have something even less marketable - a Master of Theological Studies. Just out of curiosity, have you read or heard of the following books by John Bowen: Can Islam Be French?: Pluralism and Pragmatism in a Secularist State Why the French Don’t Like Headscarves: Islam, the State, and Public Space Thoughts appreciated. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes, and you have countless examples of Islamic states being the most tolerant monotheists of their time, far more tolerant than their Christian neighbors. > > Look, I definitely think that Islam is home to a death-cult that’s far nastier than the death-cults that currently infest Christianity or Judaism. But let’s not be ahistorical about it. Sorry, but I am not sure what you mean here. I didn’t write anything about tolerance. If you are trying to say that pre-modern Islamic states could somehow be characterized as secular, I disagree. What do you mean by “death-cult”? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/82 "2014-09-19T05:16:56Z")
> [@nani](#): > > If you are trying to say that pre-modern Islamic states could somehow be characterized as secular, I disagree. I think I’d be inclined to argue that NO pre-modern state could somehow be characterized as secular ;). ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/83 "2014-09-19T09:14:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There was a feature on NPR, just today. They noted that British Muslims are unhappy with any association between them and the extremists, and that they were engaged in P.R. to make sure people understood the difference. > > That’s a win. I’m satisfied. It’s the right thing to do, and makes me respect “Modern Islam.” > > It’s not that different from the NFL, working to distance itself from spousal abuse and child abuse. Here’s another case of “modern Islam” speaking up against terror committed in the name of Islam: [“Day of action in mosques: Muslims in Germany distance themselves from IS terror militia.”](http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/muslime-in-deutschland-grenzen-sich-von-is-terrormiliz-ab-a-991964.html) (German language article from [spiegel-online.de](http://spiegel-online.de)). From the article: > [@](#): > > Mit einem Aktionstag in Moscheen wollen Muslime in Deutschland sich am Freitag klar von der Terrormiliz “Islamischer Staat” (IS) abgrenzen. “Wir wollen klarmachen, dass die Terroristen und Verbrecher nicht im Namen des Islam sprechen, dass sie die Gebote des Islams mit Füßen treten und dass Mörder und Verbrecher in unseren Reihen, in unserer Religion keinen Platz haben”, sagte der Chef des Zentralrats der Muslime (ZDM), Aiman Mazyek. Muslime würden nicht schweigen wollen, wenn der Islam wie in Syrien von Verbrechern gekidnappt werde. > > (My translation): > > With a day of action in mosques on Friday, Muslims in Germany plan to distance themselves thoroughly from the terror militia “Islamic State” (IS). “We want to make clear that the terrorists and criminals don’t speak in the name of Islam, that they trample on the commandments of Islam and that murderers and criminals have no place in our ranks, in our religion.” says the leader of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany (ZDM), Aiman Mazyek. Muslims wouldn’t want to keep quiet when Islam has been kidnapped by criminals like in Syria. So besides the many misconceptions of the OP about Muslims in general, he’s also wrong if he thinks that moderate Muslims are apathetic to the extreme fringes of their religion. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/84 "2014-09-19T12:02:38Z")
Wellk, the OP certainly has some issues with the muslim faith. What he’s been less clear about is just what we are supposed to do about the Islam Problem. So how about it, **Stringbean**? What’s the logical conclusion? How can we ensure our living space? Perhaps you have an idea for a Final Solution to this knotty issue? If you do, let’s hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/85 "2014-09-19T12:09:19Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Oh Lord (so to speak). I am sorry I don’t have time to go gather the evidence, so I realize my post would not fly in GD, but this is the Pit, so … let me just say that this Pew study has been the subject of much amazed discussion among my friends in Indonesia, who disagree strongly with its results and have pointed out serious flaws in the methodology used (I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I believe it has to do with sample size, sample location, and the leading nature of the questions asked). > > In short, that study is stupid and its results are not at all reliable, at least with respect to Indonesia. I would be interested in a more substantial refutation of Pew’s results if you’ve got it. Frankly I find them a little unbelievable and I’d be glad to learn that they’re massively exaggerated. But if sample size is the issue, sorry, I’m going with Pew before I go with internet person’s Indonesian friends. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lydia\_Phalfav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@Lydia\_Phalfav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lydia_Phalfav)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/86 "2014-09-19T14:54:25Z")
[Wikipedia - Quran](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran) [http://quran.com/](http://quran.com/) [3 Stages of Jihad (David Wood)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERou_Q5l9Gw#t=614) --Former atheist, now Christian apologist. 3 stages of Jihad: 1. Preaching peaceful tolerance of people & religions around them. 2. Defensive jihad over resources 3. Offensive jihad when they reach a majority & achieve political power. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/87 "2014-09-19T15:07:20Z")
> [@Lydia\_Phalfav](#): > > [3 Stages of Jihad (David Wood)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERou_Q5l9Gw#t=614) --Former atheist, now Christian apologist. > > 3 stages of Jihad: > > 1. Preaching peaceful tolerance of people & religions around them. > 2. Defensive jihad over resources > 3. Offensive jihad when they reach a majority & achieve political power. Golly. I’m convinced. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/88 "2014-09-19T15:49:43Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I think I’d be inclined to argue that NO pre-modern state could somehow be characterized as secular ;). Indeed. Just as there were some Christians who thought about how to live in a multi-faith society, there were some Muslims who thought the same thing. Muslim rulers, for a long time, were far better than Christian rulers at implementing a multi-faith society. Nobody implemented a secular society. As for “death cult,” I borrow the idea from (I think) Thomas Friedman, who describes the suicide bombers and other terrorists as a death cult. Really, they’re excellent villains in the pulpiest of traditions, worshipping a dark god who wants them to bring death and terror to the land. However, this death cult is miniscule compared to Islam as a whole, and people who confuse the two coincidentally tend to be racist as all get-out. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/89 "2014-09-19T15:56:04Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > I would be interested in a more substantial refutation of Pew’s results if you’ve got it. Frankly I find them a little unbelievable and I’d be glad to learn that they’re massively exaggerated. But if sample size is the issue, sorry, I’m going with Pew before I go with internet person’s Indonesian friends. 😃 There’s a lot of caveats to be added to the Pew polling. First, the numbers are almost always misreported. The numbers about support for certain punishments are of those people who said Sharia law should be applied, which even in Egypt was only something like 70% of the entire adult population. So when people say 80% support such-and-such, they’re actually only talking about half the entire country. Second, what makes public polling reliable is having multiple competing pollsters asking questions and using models that they refine over time in response to evidence. A pollster doing polling in many different countries and cultures, with no other evidence (like an election) to compare to, and without many other polls, is necessarily leaning very heavily on demographic assumptions and assumptions about survey design. Third, polling about religion is especially problematic because respondents’ answers often don’t align with their actual beliefs or conduct. If you prime Catholics with a bunch of questions about sin and hell, and then ask them about abortion, birth control, or homosexuality, you get much more severe answers than the way they actually vote or conduct themselves. So there’s probably an element of that going on. I think the take-away from the Pew polling is that a lot of Muslims (maybe a majority in a handful of countries, but a distinct minority in most of the 50-some Muslim countries) profess to believe in Seventh Century punishments for a range of crimes. It’s a troubling truth about the world, and a very legitimate criticism of Salafist and other ultra-conservative Islam. But it would be a mistake to think these numbers are as reliable as, say, polls of adult voters in US elections. There’s a whole lot less opportunity for correcting the models with this kind of thing, and a whole lot more room for errors in cross-cultural polling about religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/90 "2014-09-19T17:19:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There was a feature on NPR, just today. They noted that British Muslims are unhappy with any association between them and the extremists, and that they were engaged in P.R. to make sure people understood the difference. > > That’s a win. I’m satisfied. It’s the right thing to do, and makes me respect “Modern Islam.” > > It’s not that different from the NFL, working to distance itself from spousal abuse and child abuse. And yet, Britain is home to honor killings. Done by…guess who?? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/91 "2014-09-19T17:20:18Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Neither. Albanian honor killings predate and are entirely separate from Islam. South and Central American honor killings are entirely distinct from Islam. Or shall we consider Catholicism part of it? > > Seriously, this is not difficult research. Fuck’s sake, most of it is on goddamn Wikipedia. Surely you can manage that? The fuck does Central and South America have to do with Muslims engaging in honor killings in the name of the Muslim faith? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/92 "2014-09-19T17:22:17Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The fuck does Central and South America have to do with Muslims engaging in honor killings in the name of the Muslim faith? You’re almost there. Just rub those brain cells together a couple more times and you’ll be there. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/93 "2014-09-19T17:50:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You’re almost there. Just rub those brain cells together a couple more times and you’ll be there. How many rubs does it take to deny honor killings are prescribed by Sharia law, which is a system of social governance based directly off Muslim text and tradition? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/94 "2014-09-19T17:53:16Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > So how about it, **Stringbean**? What’s the logical conclusion? How can we ensure our living space? Perhaps you have an idea for a Final Solution to this knotty issue? If you do, let’s hear it. Funny you should bring that up, because there is one part of the world where many of the adherents of one particular religion still deny the Holocaust and where anti-semitism still abounds. And you thought your snark was winning you points. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/95 "2014-09-19T17:58:31Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > How many rubs does it take to deny honor killings are prescribed by Sharia law, which is a system of social governance based directly off Muslim text and tradition? Now we’ve established that many Muslim communities don’t believe that Sharia law includes honor killings and it is not practiced. And we’ve also established that there are many non-Muslim communities that practice honor killings with no reference to Sharia law. Based on these facts what can we conclude? ---
**Author:** ![ANT\_Pogo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ANT\_Pogo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ANT_Pogo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/96 "2014-09-19T18:31:20Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Funny you should bring that up, because there is one part of the world where many of the adherents of one particular religion still deny the Holocaust and where anti-semitism still abounds. South Carolina? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/97 "2014-09-19T18:33:10Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Now we’ve established that many Muslim communities don’t believe that Sharia law includes honor killings and it is not practiced. And we’ve also established that there are many non-Muslim communities that practice honor killings with no reference to Sharia law. > > Based on these facts what can we conclude? People are fucked up and are willing to do terrible things in the name of a higher purpose or calling. Many Muslims are willing to kill their own daughters in the name of a religion that prescribes that the shaming of family honor is a misdeed worthy of death. I still don’t see why the religion bears no burden, and why I shouldn’t express my sincere outrage that this shit still goes in 2014. It is unacceptable, not from a Judeo-Christian holier-than-thou perspective, but from a humanist perspective. This shit is unacceptable, and that so many millions of sufficiently-educated Muslims don’t see that it is unacceptable speaks volumes of what their religion is teaching them. ---
**Author:** ![ANT\_Pogo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ANT\_Pogo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ANT_Pogo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/98 "2014-09-19T18:37:48Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > How many rubs does it take to deny honor killings are prescribed by Sharia law, which is a system of social governance based directly off Muslim text and tradition? Strange…I just checked my copy of Laleh Bakhtiar’s _Encyclopedia of Islamic Law: A Compendium of the Major Schools_, and can’t seem to find honor killings anywhere in it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/99 "2014-09-19T18:57:22Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > How many rubs does it take to deny honor killings are prescribed by Sharia law, which is a system of social governance based directly off Muslim text and tradition? Honor killings are a violation of Sharia, which says that no one should be executed unless they are found guilty of a capital crime by a legitimate court. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/100 "2014-09-19T19:03:28Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > People are fucked up and are willing to do terrible things in the name of a higher purpose or calling. Many Muslims are willing to kill their own daughters in the name of a religion that prescribes that the shaming of family honor is a misdeed worthy of death. > > I still don’t see why the religion bears no burden I see why the religion bears no burden: the burden should be borne by the murderers. If you want to single out a particular strand of Islam for your ire, please do so: I’ll single out Identity Christianity for my ire, and particular forms of ultra-orthodox Judaism for my ire (hi, settlers!), and I’m certain I can track down some Hindus that still think Sati is acceptable and I can hate on them, and there are certainly some atheists who practice an especially terrible brand of atheism I can hate (and no, strident atheists, this atheist is not gonna engage you on whether it’s atheism to blame). But when you act like Islam itself is the problem, you give cover to the murderers, cover they don’t deserve. They’re not normal people, their beliefs are not normal beliefs, they shouldn’t be able to hide behind your bigoted claims to the contrary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710.md?page=6)