# I Pit "Modern Islam" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 17, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710 "2014-09-17T04:10:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/101 "2014-09-19T19:55:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed. Just as there were some Christians who thought about how to live in a multi-faith society, there were some Muslims who thought the same thing. Muslim rulers, for a long time, were far better than Christian rulers at implementing a multi-faith society. Nobody implemented a secular society. > > As for “death cult,” I borrow the idea from (I think) Thomas Friedman, who describes the suicide bombers and other terrorists as a death cult. Really, they’re excellent villains in the pulpiest of traditions, worshipping a dark god who wants them to bring death and terror to the land. However, this death cult is miniscule compared to Islam as a whole, and people who confuse the two coincidentally tend to be racist as all get-out. My examples referred to the development of our modern categories of “secular” and “religious,” not to multi-faith societies. Muslim rulers (tolerant or not) and intellectuals before colonialism operated under very different frameworks than those that rose to prominence in Christian Europe. Then modernity came backed by the business end of a rifle. Would supporters of authoritarian and oppressive governments in Islamic-majority countries count as members of a death-cult? How about American Christians who thought God wanted the US to invade Iraq? These questions aren’t rhetorical, by the way, at least for me it’s always interesting to think about the kind of violence that is normalized and accepted and the kind that is not. > [@Stringbean](#): > > How many rubs does it take to deny honor killings are prescribed by Sharia law, which is a system of social governance based directly off Muslim text and tradition? As others have mentioned, honor killings are not prescribed in Islamic jurisprudence. One reason why you might not notice non-Muslims doing it is that when non-Muslims do pretty much the same thing, it is less likely to be called an “honor killing” in the media, as opposed to a crime of passion or simply a murder. To the extent that Islamic jurisprudence (Rather than patriarchal norms that may or may not be sanctioned by local Islamic practice) plays a negative role in the phenomenon of honor killing, it is in that the murder of family members in Islamic law inhabits a kind of legal gray area, and if locals are not inclined to stop it, it can go basically excused. This is especially true now with the destruction of many traditional Islamic political structures. While this situation is a serious problem in certain areas, it is a far cry from your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/102 "2014-09-19T19:58:29Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > This shit is unacceptable, and that so many millions of sufficiently-educated Muslims don’t see that it is unacceptable speaks volumes of what their religion is teaching them. Of course it’s unacceptable, but it’s unacceptable if the perpetrators are Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Atheist or other. All religions have some followers that commit honor killings, all religions have a majority of followers that condemn it. If you were railing against honor killings, you’d have to look hard to find anyone who disagrees with you on this board. But you didn’t do that - instead you condemned an entire religion for the acts a some followers who aren’t really doing so in the name of the religion but instead because of cultural norms. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/103 "2014-09-19T21:01:32Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Funny you should bring that up, because there is one part of the world where many of the adherents of one particular religion still deny the Holocaust and where anti-semitism still abounds. > > And you thought your snark was winning you points. Now, now; I don’t play for points. I just do this for the sake of my art. But I notice you didn’t actually answer the question. Please, have the courage of your convictions and don’t piss around. If you feel Islam is such a massive threat to the world it seems reasonable to assume you would like to see its adherents at least restricted in their movements and rights, and perhaps eliminated entirely. Do these assumptions correctly represent your position, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/104 "2014-09-19T21:59:24Z")
> [@ANT\_Pogo](#): > > Strange…I just checked my copy of Laleh Bakhtiar’s _Encyclopedia of Islamic Law: A Compendium of the Major Schools_, and can’t seem to find honor killings anywhere in it. Let’s switch away from honor killings and their cultural bases and look at apostasy, a religiously defined concept, which can’t predate Islam. 82% of the Jordanians surveyed said that those who abandon Islam should be put to death. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/105 "2014-09-19T22:07:33Z")
This is wrong. I should have said: 82% of the Jordanians who favor having Sharia be the law of the land said that those who abandon Islam should be put to death. I now understand the earlier point (Richard Parker) that this is a subset of the population. But that sub-population is large (+70%), so it is probably more than half of the population of Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![ANT\_Pogo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ANT\_Pogo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ANT_Pogo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/106 "2014-09-19T22:12:20Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > Let’s switch away from honor killings and their cultural bases and look at apostasy, a religiously defined concept, which can’t predate Islam. 82% of the Jordanians surveyed said that those who abandon Islam should be put to death. And in Kazakhstan (which is 70% Muslim), only 4% of the Kazakhs surveyed said that those who abandon Islam should be put to death. Aren’t polls fun? ---
**Author:** ![ANT\_Pogo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ANT\_Pogo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ANT_Pogo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/107 "2014-09-19T22:16:15Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > I now understand the earlier point (Richard Parker) that this is a subset of the population. But that sub-population is large (+70%), so it is probably more than half of the population of Jordan. Jordan is 92% Muslim, and 71% favor making _shari’ah_ the law of the land. Of that 71%, 82% said that those who abandon Islam should be put to death. As of July 2014, Jordan was estimated to have a population of 7,930,491, meaning that 4,247,761 Jordanians support the death penalty for apostasy. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/108 "2014-09-19T22:18:18Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > But I notice you didn’t actually answer the question. Please, have the courage of your convictions and don’t piss around. If you feel Islam is such a massive threat to the world it seems reasonable to assume you would like to see its adherents at least restricted in their movements and rights, and perhaps eliminated entirely. Do these assumptions correctly represent your position, or not? Nope, I’m a libertarian who follows the teachings of a certain pacifist Christian preacher who believed that humanity arcs toward justice. The solution is of course not Final but Gradual: the shaming of barbaric Muslims as each successive generation realizes the horror of their cultural identity and comes to increasingly embrace the Western world’s democratic, secular values. Far be it for me to strike a man with my fist; words cut deeper. It is not my place to force the horse to drink, but to merely show it the path. Should the throngs of barbaric Muslims choose to continue their barbaric practices they will reap what they sow. Fuck them if they do. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/109 "2014-09-19T22:22:01Z")
> [@ANT\_Pogo](#): > > And in Kazakhstan (which is 70% Muslim), only 4% of the Kazakhs surveyed said that those who abandon Islam should be put to death. > > Aren’t polls fun? What!!! Not all Muslims think the same thing and Muslims in different countries have differing beliefs! ---
**Author:** ![ANT\_Pogo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ANT\_Pogo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ANT_Pogo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/110 "2014-09-19T22:26:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What!!! > > Not all Muslims think the same thing and Muslims in different countries have differing beliefs! I know! Crazy, huh? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/111 "2014-09-19T22:34:12Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Nope, I’m a libertarian who follows the teachings of a certain pacifist Christian preacher who believed that humanity arcs toward justice. Now I could start a pit thread condemning all Americans for their wacko beliefs, but I’m not that dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/112 "2014-09-19T22:37:19Z")
> [@ANT\_Pogo](#): > > … meaning that 4,247,761 Jordanians support the death penalty for apostasy. Say that Pew did a survey of Whites in Mississippi and found that 4,247,761 of them responded that they would support lynching of a black man strongly suspected of raping a white woman. One way to respond would be to say… “Well, they are not actually **lynching** that much anymore, they just said they **support** it. Anyway, there are other Whites, like those living in Manitoba, that don’t support it.” ---
**Author:** ![ANT\_Pogo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ANT\_Pogo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ANT_Pogo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/113 "2014-09-19T22:55:28Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > Say that Pew did a survey of Whites in Mississippi and found that 4,247,761 of them responded that they would support lynching of a black man strongly suspected of raping a white woman. Wouldn’t surprise me. > [@](#): > > One way to respond would be to say… “Well, they are not actually **lynching** that much anymore, they just said they **support** it. Anyway, there are other Whites, like those living in Manitoba, that don’t support it.” Why would you blame whites in Manitoba, Canada for what whites in Mississippi, USA believe? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/114 "2014-09-19T23:15:07Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Nope, I’m a libertarian who follows the teachings of a certain pacifist Christian preacher who believed that humanity arcs toward justice. Really, now? All indicators in this thread tend to show you follow the Church of the Nine Commandments. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/115 "2014-09-20T00:02:11Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The solution is of course not Final but Gradual: the shaming of barbaric Muslims as each successive generation realizes the horror of their cultural identity and comes to increasingly embrace the Western world’s democratic, secular values. > > Far be it for me to strike a man with my fist; words cut deeper. It is not my place to force the horse to drink, but to merely show it the path. Should the throngs of barbaric Muslims choose to continue their barbaric practices they will reap what they sow. Fuck them if they do. Lotta “barbaric muslims” reading your posts on this message board, are there? Hunh, there’s my ignorance well and truly fought. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/116 "2014-09-20T00:35:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Really, now? All indicators in this thread tend to show you follow the Church of the Nine Commandments. I’m not a Christian, so blind love is not in my purview. Though the pacifist, humanist teachings of Jesus are without a doubt of greater value to the world than the divisive, brutal, and Marsian ideas of the prophet Mohammed. But, of course: it’s all cultural, relative, and the religious subtext means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/117 "2014-09-20T00:49:42Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Far be it for me to strike a man with my fist; words cut deeper. It is not my place to force the horse to drink, but to merely show it the path. Ah. Slacktivism. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/118 "2014-09-20T02:03:29Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Nope, I’m a libertarian who follows the teachings of a certain pacifist Christian preacher… Not very well, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/119 "2014-09-20T04:49:08Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I’m not a Christian, so blind love is not in my purview. Though the pacifist, humanist teachings of Jesus are without a doubt of greater value to the world than the divisive, brutal, and Marsian ideas of the prophet Mohammed. > > But, of course: it’s all cultural, relative, and the religious subtext means nothing. You done got whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/120 "2014-09-20T05:06:29Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > . . . the divisive, brutal, and Marsian ideas of the prophet Mohammed. . . . Marsian? And…y’know, much of it is purely culturally relative. You don’t like Islam? Genghis and Tamerlane were a damn sight worse! At its height, before those worthies demolished it, Islam was the world’s shining light of reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710.md?page=7)