# I Pit "Modern Islam" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 17, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710 "2014-09-17T04:10:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/141 "2014-09-20T21:42:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If he was a Muslim, why the hell did he do so much damage to Islamic regions? Some men just want to see the world burn, Master **Trin**. Also, apparently [citation needed] the Nazis launched Operation Barbarossa the very same day Tamerlane’s bones were exhumed by archeologists. Clearly he _still does_. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/142 "2014-09-20T22:37:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I think I hate him even more now! ☹ [muttering]…stack a few skulls here and there and suddenly you’re Tamerlane the skull-stacker…[/muttering] ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/143 "2014-09-20T23:25:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I mean, if you asked every Christian in the world “Do you feel that killing gays is justified in some cases ? In every case ?” or the like, I’m fairly confident you’d wind up with a 15-20% “Sure, why not ?” response too. > That’s because “the entire world” includes a lot of scary fucking backwards places, and “every Christian in the world” includes a lot of crazy people, a lot of mindlessly bloodthirsty people, a lot of pig ignorant people and a lot of all-of-this-applies people too. If half of all Christians in the US, Brazil, Mexico, Russia, the Philippines, and Nigeria (ie about 15% of the world’s 2.2 billion Christians) believed that stoning was the appropriate punishment for adultery or death for apostasy would you think that might reflect poorly on Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/144 "2014-09-20T23:49:51Z")
Bub, I think just \*any percentage \*of the US rejecting evolution reflects poorly on Christianity. My standards are not exactly high. \*\*All \*\*religion is crapola, even though it might have been a drive towards civilization at one very, very early point. I do, however, object to notions that this religion is OK discounting some bad apples, but _that_ religion is inherently toxic. It’s insular ignorance and bigotry, mistaking causes for consequences, and frankly quite insulting to my intellect. The human animal is a lot more granular and the world is a much more complex & deep system than the cartoon you’re trying to sell. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/145 "2014-09-21T00:59:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Some men just want to see the world burn, Master **Trin**. And more want money and land and power and such. Plus, yeah, the skull stacking. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/146 "2014-09-21T01:47:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Bub, I think just \*any percentage \*of the US rejecting evolution reflects poorly on Christianity. My standards are not exactly high. \*\*All \*\*religion is crapola, even though it might have been a drive towards civilization at one very, very early point. > > I do, however, object to notions that this religion is OK discounting some bad apples, but _that_ religion is inherently toxic. It’s insular ignorance and bigotry, mistaking causes for consequences, and frankly quite insulting to my intellect. The human animal is a lot more granular and the world is a much more complex & deep system than the cartoon you’re trying to sell. Look, dude. All I’m saying is that in the 21st century, a greater percentage of Muslims seem to hold violently illiberal attitudes than can be said of other major religions. If you want to argue with that, please provide evidence to the contrary. Islam taken literally may be no more violently illiberal than Christianity or Judaism taken literally, but I’m only talking about the attitudes of its adherents today. The OP as I understand it is saying that the attitudes of Muslims are uniquely backwards vs adherents of other major religions today, and frankly I have trouble arguing with that notwithstanding the fact that most of the world’s Muslims are just trying to live their lives like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/147 "2014-09-21T02:34:06Z")
In the 21st century a greater percentage of Muslims than can be said of followers of other major religions hail from countries where education is nonexistent, economic opportunities scarce, corruption endemic, governments and other institutions deliberately sabotaged or undermined by foreign interests, ethno-racial conflicts or civil war rampant and infrastructure bombed the shit out of/resources plundered. But it’s really the Islam thing that’s the root of the problem. Seems legit. Say, according to your thoughtful analysis, what religious factors make or made the Colombian cartels so violently illiberal ? Or the Russians ? Or the Serbs ? Or the Hutu ? Or the Greeks, them of the Golden Dawn ? The Haitians under Papa Doc ? The Germans circa 1930 ? Heh, try this one for size : what percentage of dirt poor, uneducated Americans would you expect support violence on women for adultery ? And which passages in their holy texts brought them to this sorry, illiberal attitude ? Hopeless people turn angry and violent, uneducated people find \*dumb \*reasons to be violent about. News at fucking 11. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/148 "2014-09-21T03:16:13Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Look, dude. All I’m saying is that in the 21st century, a greater percentage of Muslims seem to hold violently illiberal attitudes than can be said of other major religions. If you want to argue with that, please provide evidence to the contrary. Islam taken literally may be no more violently illiberal than Christianity or Judaism taken literally, but I’m only talking about the attitudes of its adherents today. The OP as I understand it is saying that the attitudes of Muslims are uniquely backwards vs adherents of other major religions today, and frankly I have trouble arguing with that notwithstanding the fact that most of the world’s Muslims are just trying to live their lives like everyone else. These radical Islamists? Selling the poison of religious war? You’re their best friend, you know that? Look over there, look at the enlightened educated Americans how they hate us. Look at what they call us, listen to their contempt. The Devil can put his feet up, you got his workload covered. Stop it. Never do it again, so long as you live. If you have a God, pray for forgiveness, if you haven’t, maybe do it anyway, it builds character. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/149 "2014-09-21T12:52:35Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > I would be interested in a more substantial refutation of Pew’s results if you’ve got it. Frankly I find them a little unbelievable and I’d be glad to learn that they’re massively exaggerated. But if sample size is the issue, sorry, I’m going with Pew before I go with internet person’s Indonesian friends. 😃 I did go back and talk to a few folks and look at the survey again. (Though I can’t see the questions they asked in the Indonesian language, either because they are not on the site or because I didn’t try hard enough to find them.) Anyway…intellectual honesty compels me to note that the sample size, and the geographic spread, both seem fine. What bothered the people I talked to when this survey came out (some Indonesian, some foreigners living in Indonesia) was a bit subtle. They felt that asking people if they would want Shari’a law adopted was not a meaningful question on its own, because Indonesians don’t fully appreciate the implications. Most Muslims will be agreeable to the notion of Shari’a law, in the abstract. BUT. If you asked them, “So, would you like the laws of Indonesia to include a law that says ‘adulterers should be stoned to death’ and ‘thieves should have their hands chopped off’?” most people would NOT be happy with that. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/150 "2014-09-21T14:04:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > These radical Islamists? Selling the poison of religious war? You’re their best friend, you know that? Look over there, look at the enlightened educated Americans how they hate us. Look at what they call us, listen to their contempt. The Devil can put his feet up, you got his workload covered. It makes no sense to blame the honor killings, forced wearing of veils, intolerance towards gays, and other ass-backwards norms among many Muslim societies on American society. _They hate us so much for our freedom that they want to live like barbarians from the Middle Ages!_ You don’t buy that and neither does anyone with a brain. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/151 "2014-09-21T14:07:22Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > What bothered the people I talked to when this survey came out (some Indonesian, some foreigners living in Indonesia) was a bit subtle. They felt that asking people if they would want Shari’a law adopted was not a meaningful question on its own, because Indonesians don’t fully appreciate the implications. Most Muslims will be agreeable to the notion of Shari’a law, in the abstract. BUT. If you asked them, “So, would you like the laws of Indonesia to include a law that says ‘adulterers should be stoned to death’ and ‘thieves should have their hands chopped off’?” most people would NOT be happy with that. They’re agreeable to the law but not what the law states? These people aren’t morons. They know what Sharia says and the results speaks for themselves: they want it. You can’t ascribe misguided intention to what is a very clear question: do you support Sharia Law and do you support stoning to death for apostacy/adultery? When someone says yes to that, they know what they are saying. You can’t explain that away as being “lost in translation.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/152 "2014-09-21T14:46:20Z")
> [@](#): > > …You don’t buy that and neither does anyone with a brain. What I don’t buy is ignorant, trashy low-down bigotry. It’s evil without dignity, it has to beg for respect, it would be rejected as a donation to the Badwill Store. You want to pose as a hard-headed realist, but you are selling slime that would nauseate a sewer rat. You are the stupid kind of evil, the evil that thinks it knows something for certain that just ain’t so. My soul wants to take a shower and a sauna, to cleanse the toxins of contact with your kind. I’ve seen your ways too often for my liking. May the blessed Baby Jesus shut your mouth and open your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/153 "2014-09-21T15:47:39Z")
Eh. You bought the snake oil the PC left is selling: it’s America’s fault. That’s trashy, low-down intellectual laziness. Search deeper and you will find ugly truths. And many will deride you should you dare speak them. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/154 "2014-09-21T16:06:42Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In the 21st century a greater percentage of Muslims than can be said of followers of other major religions hail from countries where education is nonexistent, economic opportunities scarce, corruption endemic, governments and other institutions deliberately sabotaged or undermined by foreign interests, ethno-racial conflicts or civil war rampant and infrastructure bombed the shit out of/resources plundered. > > But it’s really the Islam thing that’s the root of the problem. > > Seems legit. > > Say, according to your thoughtful analysis, what religious factors make or made the Colombian cartels so violently illiberal ? Or the Russians ? Or the Serbs ? Or the Hutu ? Or the Greeks, them of the Golden Dawn ? The Haitians under Papa Doc ? The Germans circa 1930 ? > Heh, try this one for size : what percentage of dirt poor, uneducated Americans would you expect support violence on women for adultery ? And which passages in their holy texts brought them to this sorry, illiberal attitude ? > > Hopeless people turn angry and violent, uneducated people find \*dumb \*reasons to be violent about. News at fucking 11. As I said in post #66, maybe the Pew results say more about conditions in places like Egypt and Pakistan than they say about Islam itself. I don’t disagree. You’ll find plenty of radically illiberal Christians in places like Uganda. My narrow point was to push back against claims like **MostlyUseless** : > [@](#): > > The fact is that there is a certain very small percentage of those practicing Islam who are ultra-conservative and thugs. You can find that in Christianity just as easily. The Pew survey, as far as it’s to be taken at face value, suggests it’s a whole lot more than a fringe minority. That’s the only point I’m making. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/155 "2014-09-21T16:19:36Z")
Ah, good. Having made it, you’ll shut up now? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/156 "2014-09-21T16:46:42Z")
Is reality disrupting your fun-time-in-fantasy-fairy-land worldview? You know, where you get all indignant toward those exposing the barbarism of a certain region and religion of the world? _Blah blah blah, I just want everyone to be happy and stay in my happy bubble where I can pretend these horrors aren’t real. Oh, and Christians are just as bad. Don’t show me numbers proving otherwise. Christians are just as bad!_ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/157 "2014-09-21T17:27:51Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Eh. You bought the snake oil the PC left is selling… Maybe. The venom is better? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/158 "2014-09-21T17:58:06Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > …Oh, and Christians are just as bad. Don’t show me numbers proving otherwise. Christians are just as bad!\* Oh, so the Ku Klux Klan? Sunni, you think, or Shia? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/159 "2014-09-21T18:00:41Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > The Pew survey, as far as it’s to be taken at face value, suggests it’s a whole lot more than a fringe minority. That’s the only point I’m making. But it’s utterly meaningless to tally up the stats provided by the Pew survey for use as a context-free average. That’s bad statistical analysis and worse anthropology. On average, in 1940 up to 40% of the population of Europe was supporting and enacting the systematic dispossession and murder of Jews. OMG, that’s a \*lot \*more than a fringe minority ! There must be something about “being European” that causes antisemitism, and we’d probably be right to worry about Europeans in general is all I’m saying. See how silly that sounds ? ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710/160 "2014-09-21T18:28:43Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > What bothered the people I talked to when this survey came out (some Indonesian, some foreigners living in Indonesia) was a bit subtle. They felt that asking people if they would want Shari’a law adopted was not a meaningful question on its own, because Indonesians don’t fully appreciate the implications. Most Muslims will be agreeable to the notion of Shari’a law, in the abstract. BUT. If you asked them, “So, would you like the laws of Indonesia to include a law that says ‘adulterers should be stoned to death’ and ‘thieves should have their hands chopped off’?” most people would NOT be happy with that. Imagine Pew surveyed Americans and asked “Do you think America should adopt laws based on Biblical principles?” A fair percentage would answer “yes”, especially here in the South. But if the question was “Do you support the death penalty for getting a tattoo?”, the percentage would be much lower, don’t you think? I don’t know if that’s the sort of thing the Pew survey results represent, but I suspect that the phenomenon of believing-in-a-holy-book-without-reading-it-all-the-way-through is as common in Islam as it is in Christianity. > [@nani](#): > > Well, if you decide to start a pit thread on Muhammad, we can do that, but let’s be creative with it. Everyone always goes after the low-hanging fruit. No one talks about his … [awkward encounters with effeminate guys](http://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/104), … Did I read that right? Does the _hadith_ actually preserve the tale of a drag queen dropping a “yo momma so fat” line on the Prophet? If so, that’s _awesome._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-modern-islam/698710.md?page=9)