# I pit my fellow whiteys who think they are Native American **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686 "2014-09-16T20:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/81 "2014-09-17T20:56:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not true. You can been Indian (genetically), but not accepted by any tribe or not be part of a recognized tribe. Yes, and? Still, never the less, there is a LEGAL definition of who is a Amerind here in the USA. You can be 100% Hekawi (genetically) and if they dont recognize you, you are not a Hekawi. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/82 "2014-09-17T21:38:44Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I dare suggest pretendianism is racist in and of itself, and is part of the actual genocide. That’s all I have to do to commit genocide? Sweet. I thought it’d be all hard and require weapons and lots of people and time and stuff. My great grandpa was born in the [Indian Capitol of the Nation](http://www.ushwy281.com/2009/10/on-hwy-281-ok-is-the-indian-capital-of-the-nation.html). So that makes me 1/8 Nadarko and I even speak the language of the time, English. I even visited my homeland a few years back and bought a Garth Brooks shirt while I was there. I love being Native American. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/83 "2014-09-17T21:58:11Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > Descended from _what_\*\* other parts of the word? What in the name of Balthasar Johannes Vorster are you talking about? Let’s say Europe. There are blond blue-eyed Native Americans. That is generally because they have some European ancestors. Your definition of a Native American excluded those people because they wouldn’t look right to you. Why are they not Native Americans if their other ancestors are Native American? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/84 "2014-09-17T22:23:15Z")
Because he’s racist against us white Native Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/85 "2014-09-17T22:28:10Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I will know a Native American when I see one. He/She does not have to tell me his/her blood quantum. I can simply look at him/her and think to myself, “Aha! I see he/she is an American aborigine.” What boat did you just step off? Or what kind of truck hit you? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/86 "2014-09-17T22:29:58Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Maybe you’re Dutch. (Runs hand through his dark extremely thick and in no way receding scalp locks.) > > I live on a street full of men about my age, or a little younger, nearly all of whom are balding to the point of just shaving their domes. It gives me pleasure. 🙂 Or he could be Hungarian and/or Slovak. My grandfather was and neither he nor any of his brothers ever went bald. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/87 "2014-09-17T22:38:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > White people who are only a tiny, tiny, tiny bit Native American, but proclaim themselves to be “genuine Apache!” (or whatever) are really just trying to game the system to get the best of both worlds. > > They want to enjoy the advantage of being white, and also enjoy the “interesting/unusual/diversity” advantage of claiming to be minority/Native American. Not Apache. Cherokee. It’s ALWAYS a Cherokee princess. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/88 "2014-09-17T23:28:42Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I made it quite clear in my original post that I am _against_\*\* the “Great White Father” crowd. I am _not_\*\* trying to champion the “whitey knows best” position. When I tell people to stop being pretendians, I am talking to my fellow whiteys. I am in no way telling real natives what to do, or trying to force my views on them. I’m simply trying to drag impostors from my ethnicity out of the midst of real natives. After the alleged genocide, this type of pretendianism is even more destructive of real native identity, as it causes real natives to become more and more forgotten as fake natives pop up like rabbits and define the real ones out of existence. I dare suggest pretendianism is racist in and of itself, and is part of the actual genocide. And I’m asking who on earth you are to determine – based on how someone \*\*\*looks \*\*\*-- that they are or are not Native Americans? Eye, skin, and hair colour don’t follow a straight Punnet square, so the genetics we learned in 8th grade don’t apply here. ---
**Author:** ![Amberlei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@Amberlei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amberlei)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/89 "2014-09-17T23:49:06Z")
> [@Amberlei](#): > > While it’s nowhere near half, there are actually quite a few people with tribal affiliations who don’t look stereotypically NA. I have a friend whose mother is a full-blood member of the Spokane tribe while her father is of Norwegian descent. My friend and her sister both look NA, while her brother is a tall blond guy. The only thing that looks at all NA about him is his eyes. The father of my friend’s first two children was half-blackfoot, 1/8 black, and 3/8 white. One of their daughters looks NA, the other is a frizzy-haired, blue-eyed blonde. The father of her other daughter was white, but their daughter looks NA. > [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I will know a Native American when I see one. He/She does not have to tell me his/her blood quantum. I can simply look at him/her and think to myself, “Aha! I see he/she is an American aborigine.” So what you’re saying is that my friend and her sister I spoke of in my previous post can call themselves NA because they look the part. Their blond brother should have been excluded from all tribal activities, since he’s so obviously just a wannabe. Then, since my friend’s oldest and youngest daughters look NA, they can stay tribal members, but their blonde sister, who is more NA than the youngest daughter, should be excluded along with her uncle. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, it’s actually incredibly offensive and racist. Instead of promoting the preservation of cultural identity that you seem to want, your view would shatter it, ripping communities and families apart. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/90 "2014-09-18T00:04:08Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I will know a Native American when I see one. He/She does not have to tell me his/her blood quantum. I can simply look at him/her and think to myself, “Aha! I see he/she is an American aborigine.” Do you have this kind of certainty with all racial groups? There are all kinds of racially ambiguous people out there who have legitimate claims to their heritage. It’s fine for you to view these people with suspicion, I suppose. But just be aware that if you give the wrong person a hard time about it, you might get a severe tongue-lashing or worse. And they would be justified in doing so, because it isn’t any of your business why a person self-identifies the way they do. Maybe it’s a regional thing or something, because I’ve never encountered a “pretendarian”. I’ve met only one person in my life who has benefited from their distant ancestry. Like, I was in a college orientation program for minority students ages ago, and my roommate was a white girl who’s great-grandsomebody came from Spain–thus making her Hispanic. However, she was totally upfront about it, and it is actually not clear to me whether participation in the program was exclusive to minorities anyway (there were some other white-looking folks there). I have met white people who have mentioned having distant Native American ancestry. But that’s no different than me talking about my European great-grandfather. So maybe these pretendarians don’t do their schtick around me? Or they live out West somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/91 "2014-09-18T00:13:18Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > After the alleged genocide, this type of pretendianism is even more destructive of real native identity, as it causes real natives to become more and more forgotten as fake natives pop up like rabbits and define the real ones out of existence. I dare suggest pretendianism is racist in and of itself, and is part of the actual genocide. To protect us little weak brown people a Great White Father is going to protect us from further genocide by Pitting his Great White Brothers? Iron Eyes Cody would approve of this with a single distinguished tear falling down his stoic face. In HD. ---
**Author:** ![ILikeForeignLanguages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc8723/32.png) [@ILikeForeignLanguages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ILikeForeignLanguages)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/92 "2014-09-18T00:28:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and? Still, never the less, there is a LEGAL definition of who is a Amerind here in the USA. You can be 100% Hekawi (genetically) and if they dont recognize you, you are not a Hekawi. Wait, so, if I’m 100% white, but the KKK doesn’t recognize me, does that mean I’m not white? Is this seriously the logic behind fake natives? I see the fake natives are all coming out of the woodwork and getting angry at me because I blew the whistle on their horse malarkey. They are resorting to the type of double-talk in which they accuse me of being a racist, etc. Someone even warned me of a potential “tongue-lashing” as if I were a child to be threatened by their reprimands. I will not buckle or kneel. I stand firm.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Amberlei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@Amberlei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amberlei)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/93 "2014-09-18T01:01:21Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > Wait, so, if I’m 100% white, but the KKK doesn’t recognize me, does that mean I’m not white? Is this seriously the logic behind fake natives? > > I see the fake natives are all coming out of the woodwork and getting angry at me because I blew the whistle on their horse malarkey. They are resorting to the type of double-talk in which they accuse me of being a racist, etc. Someone even warned me of a potential “tongue-lashing” as if I were a child to be threatened by their reprimands. I will not buckle or kneel. I stand firm.🆒 Who are you to determine anyone’s cultural identity for them? If a tribe wants to accept someone as a part of that tribe and share their culture with them, what right do you, or any of us outside of that specific cultural group, have to say they’re wrong? If every member of every tribe had to be 100% ethnically “pure” there wouldn’t be very many people who could qualify. From practically the moment Europeans came to the new world, intermingling took place. There are tribes that welcomed both black and white people as members, fully integrating them into tribal society way back when. There are tribes that captured women and children, raising both the children and the mixed children as tribe members. Even with people who don’t have a trace of non-indigenous ancestry, the odds are you won’t find many people that are 100% Cherokee or 100% Blackfoot, or 100% anything else. Even amongst themselves, it wasn’t terribly uncommon for a woman from one nation to be captured and married into another nation. What matters here is the preservation of a cultural system, in a manner determined by members of said cultural system, not someone else’ stereotyped impression of what members of a given culture should look like. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/94 "2014-09-18T01:22:23Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I agree in part with your rant. White people who have little native heritage and little connection to native culture shouldn’t call themselves Native American. In my experience, few do. (at least seriously). > > On the other hand, you cannot accurately identify someone as non-Native just because they’re blond or blue-eyed. Native Americans come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. I’m willing to allow people to decide for themselves what group to identify with. Plus, most tribes have standards for enrollment, that don’t include eye or hair color. My friend Pat is no shit one quarter indian, as in her paternal grandmother was an american indian, born and raised on a reservation and registered american indian. She is also a dainty little 5’1" china doll - alabaster pale skin, blue eyes and platinum blond hair. She also breeds true, all their kids are cute little blue eyed blonds. Her other 3 grandparents are Irish descended Americans. [URL=“[http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/](http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/)”] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/95 "2014-09-18T02:12:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and? Still, never the less, there is a LEGAL definition of who is a Amerind here in the USA. You can be 100% Hekawi (genetically) and if they dont recognize you, you are not a Hekawi. No. There is no LEGAL definition of Native America. There is a legal definition of being in a tribe, which is NOT the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![ILikeForeignLanguages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc8723/32.png) [@ILikeForeignLanguages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ILikeForeignLanguages)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/96 "2014-09-18T02:55:05Z")
> [@Amberlei](#): > > Who are you to determine anyone’s cultural identity for them? If a tribe wants to accept someone as a part of that tribe and share their culture with them, what right do you, or any of us outside of that specific cultural group, have to say they’re wrong? If every member of every tribe had to be 100% ethnically “pure” there wouldn’t be very many people who could qualify. From practically the moment Europeans came to the new world, intermingling took place. There are tribes that welcomed both black and white people as members, fully integrating them into tribal society way back when. There are tribes that captured women and children, raising both the children and the mixed children as tribe members. Even with people who don’t have a trace of non-indigenous ancestry, the odds are you won’t find many people that are 100% Cherokee or 100% Blackfoot, or 100% anything else. Even amongst themselves, it wasn’t terribly uncommon for a woman from one nation to be captured and married into another nation. What matters here is the preservation of a cultural system, in a manner determined by members of said cultural system, not someone else’ stereotyped impression of what members of a given culture should look like. I’m talking about ethnicity, not culture. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/97 "2014-09-18T03:22:08Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I’m talking about ethnicity, not culture. That makes no difference. Whatever your definition of ethnicity is it is a stupid one if you think you can determine it with your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/98 "2014-09-18T03:32:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In my opinion, if someone is 1/32 or 1/64 Native American, that’s simply too diluted to proclaim such ancestry as one’s main heritage in good faith. What if that person is, according to tribal law or custom, a full member of a matrilineally or patrilineally based clan, as all of their direct line maternal or paternal ancestors are part of the tribe? Or a lawful “citizen” of that nation. And culturally and socially part of that community? Being a Native American is not a simple matter of blood or genes. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/99 "2014-09-18T03:34:29Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I will know a Native American when I see one. He/She does not have to tell me his/her blood quantum. I can simply look at him/her and think to myself, “Aha! I see he/she is an American aborigine.” Really? And what happens when you see someone you believe is a Native American…who turns out not to be? ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/100 "2014-09-18T03:47:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Do you have this kind of certainty with all racial groups? > > There are all kinds of racially ambiguous people out there who have legitimate claims to their heritage. It’s fine for you to view these people with suspicion, I suppose. But just be aware that if you give the wrong person a hard time about it, you might get a severe tongue-lashing or worse. And they would be justified in doing so, because it isn’t any of your business why a person self-identifies the way they do. > > Maybe it’s a regional thing or something, because I’ve never encountered a “pretendarian”. I’ve met only one person in my life who has benefited from their distant ancestry. Like, I was in a college orientation program for minority students ages ago, and my roommate was a white girl who’s great-grandsomebody came from Spain–thus making her Hispanic. However, she was totally upfront about it, and it is actually not clear to me whether participation in the program was exclusive to minorities anyway (there were some other white-looking folks there). I have met white people who have mentioned having distant Native American ancestry. But that’s no different than me talking about my European great-grandfather. So maybe these pretendarians don’t do their schtick around me? Or they live out West somewhere? Most white-looking, non-culturally Native people I’ve met who claim Native American ancestry are from the South, especially from places that experienced the brunt of Indian Removal. Technically speaking, Hispanic is not exclusive of white, so a person with white Spanish ancestry is not committing any fraud in claiming to be Hispanic. Indeed, I am not clear what actually legally defines a person as “Hispanic” as names are not always a clear indication, Hispanics can have virtually any racial appearance, and - unlike other groups - vital records like birth certificates often do not list “Hispanic” as an option. Basically, you are Hispanic if you say you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686.md?page=6)