# I pit my fellow whiteys who think they are Native American **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686 "2014-09-16T20:21:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/101 "2014-09-18T04:09:46Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > Most white-looking, non-culturally Native people I’ve met who claim Native American ancestry are from the South, especially from places that experienced the brunt of Indian Removal. > > Technically speaking, Hispanic is not exclusive of white, so a person with white Spanish ancestry is not committing any fraud in claiming to be Hispanic. Indeed, I am not clear what actually legally defines a person as “Hispanic” as names are not always a clear indication, Hispanics can have virtually any racial appearance, and - unlike other groups - vital records like birth certificates often do not list “Hispanic” as an option. Basically, you are Hispanic if you say you are. My mom almost married a Greek guy … so I could have popped out Platsdeutsch-Greek … talk about a messed up idea. Would I be American mutt, or Greek in your eyes? [Guy in the US going to university, she says they probably would have ended up staying in the US. This was back in 1947-8] [URL=“[http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/](http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/)”] ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/102 "2014-09-18T04:20:14Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > Most white-looking, non-culturally Native people I’ve met who claim Native American ancestry are from the South, especially from places that experienced the brunt of Indian Removal. > > Technically speaking, Hispanic is not exclusive of white, so a person with white Spanish ancestry is not committing any fraud in claiming to be Hispanic. Indeed, I am not clear what actually legally defines a person as “Hispanic” as names are not always a clear indication, Hispanics can have virtually any racial appearance, and - unlike other groups - vital records like birth certificates often do not list “Hispanic” as an option. Basically, you are Hispanic if you say you are. No, you’re Hispanic if you’re a member of that ethnicity/cultural group. Which true, it has nothing to do with race, but there ARE things that define it. My husband is a blue-eyed, blonde Hispanic, who grew up in a home with a parent who was an immigrant from a Spanish-speaking country. He has a Spanish last name. They followed ethnic traditions from his dad’s homeland. He’s Hispanic…and it’s not just his “say-so,” he’s Hispanic because he IS. That being said, his connection to the heritage is stronger than, say, our kids’ connection, and by the time the family is 1/32 Hispanic, I think we can safely say there isn’t a connection at all. This is no different than someone claiming to be Native American if they are culturally removed from that group. It’s offensive to say or imply that they understand the experience of being Native American. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/103 "2014-09-18T16:02:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. There is no LEGAL definition of Native America. There is a legal definition of being in a tribe, which is NOT the same thing. If you’re not a Legal member of a recognized Tribe, you are not a Amerind, legally. You can claim no benefits, etc. Legally, it’s the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/104 "2014-09-18T16:09:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you’re not a Legal member of a recognized Tribe, you are not a Amerind, legally. You can claim no benefits, etc. Legally, it’s the same thing. If “Amerind” means American Indian, I disagree with this assertion. Being an enrolled member of a federally recognized tribe does have meaning and consequences, but it is not the only definition of American Indian. My children are not enrolled, but they are American Indian. They can benefit from things like affirmative action and native preference in hiring (tribal enterprises). They don’t get per capita checks from their tribe, but they are “legally” as Indian as I am “legally” white, Jewish, male, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/105 "2014-09-18T16:14:21Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > If “Amerind” means American Indian, I disagree with this assertion. Being an enrolled member of a federally recognized tribe does have meaning and consequences, but it is not the only definition of American Indian. My children are not enrolled, but they are American Indian. They can benefit from things like affirmative action and native preference in hiring (tribal enterprises). They don’t get per capita checks from their tribe, but they are “legally” as Indian as I am “legally” white, Jewish, male, etc. You are “legally” white, Jewish, etc as you “self-identify” as such. You can qualify as Black and get Affirmative Action if you are blonde, Blue-eyed, Nordic and all you ancestors going back four generations were also that way. You simply state “I self-identify as Black”, that is the sole “qualification”. About “Amerind”= what word are you gonna use? “Indian”? Not PC, and excludes the Eskimo. Native American? I am a native American, I was born here. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/106 "2014-09-18T16:21:33Z")
I know people who think they can assert any definition of Jewish, from having a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother, to simply adopting rituals and deciding this is what they believe, but sorry, there is a Talmudic definition of “Jewish,” and that is the one that counts. You can say you have Jewish ancestry, or that you find Judaism attractive, credible, or satisfying, but unless you are halakhically Jewish, you can’t call yourself a Jew. What was it someone said in the heterosexual lesbian thread that was so funny-- something about identifying with the term strongly enough to accept being at odds with it semantically? gosh, it was good. It applies here. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/107 "2014-09-18T16:25:30Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > Look at the history of what we did to the indigenous people: we took their identity, raped it, beat it to nothing, burned it and then urinated on the ashes; No, we did not. People we are distantly related to did these things - some of us are just more distantly related than others. Don’t be a racist piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/108 "2014-09-18T16:34:23Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > What was it someone said in the heterosexual lesbian thread that was so funny-- something about identifying with the term strongly enough to accept being at odds with it semantically? gosh, it was good. It applies here. “Yes, but my identification with that culture and identity is important enough to me that I’m willing to be at odds with certain elements of common linguistic usage.” Definitely, there are some white people (with or without 1/16 Cherokee princess heritage), who identify with native American culture enough that they are willing to be at odds with certain elements of common linguistic usage. Then, of course, there is the problem that the linguistic usage of various terms for the original people to settle North America are kinda sloppy. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/109 "2014-09-18T16:40:33Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I know people who think they can assert any definition of Jewish, from having a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother, to simply adopting rituals and deciding this is what they believe, but sorry, there is a Talmudic definition of “Jewish,” and that is the one that counts. You can say you have Jewish ancestry, or that you find Judaism attractive, credible, or satisfying, but unless you are halakhically Jewish, you can’t call yourself a Jew. > > . Does not the Talmudic definition differ between Orthodox and Reform? > **[Who is a Jew?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F)** > > "Who is a Jew?" (Hebrew: מיהו יהודי .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[ˈmi(h)u je(h)uˈdi\]) is a basic question about Jewish identity and considerations of Jewish self-identification. The question pertains to ideas about Jewish personhood, which have cultural, ethnic, religious, political, genealogical, and personal dimens... _However, there are differences of opinion among the various branches of Judaism in the application of this definition_ ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/110 "2014-09-18T16:50:06Z")
It’s a little silly for people to claim a certain ethnicity based on genetics, if culturally they don’t have the least bit of relationship to it. For example, a friend is 1/8 Mexican by genetics, but he’s as white american as you can be- culturally and physically. Auburn hair, freckles, pasty white skin, and grew up in Arkansas. It would be absurd, and probably not a little bit offensive to some, if he was to claim that he’s hispanic. As far as my personal ancestry is concerned, it’s predominantly English and German, with smaller, but still significant doses of Scots-Irish and French. But I don’t claim to be “German”, or “English” or any of the others- I’m an American, and if you want to get more granular, a Texan. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/111 "2014-09-18T16:51:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Does not the Talmudic definition differ between Orthodox and Reform? > > _However, there are differences of opinion among the various branches of Judaism in the application of this definition_ There’s only one Talmud-- well, there’s the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, but that’s not what I mean. When Reform Judaism differs, it’s usually because someone has decided to simply disregard what the Talmud says. That’s kind of like deciding which stop signs you are going to obey. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/112 "2014-09-18T16:52:25Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I know people who think they can assert any definition of Jewish, from having a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother, to simply adopting rituals and deciding this is what they believe, but sorry, there is a Talmudic definition of “Jewish,” and that is the one that counts. You can say you have Jewish ancestry, or that you find Judaism attractive, credible, or satisfying, but unless you are halakhically Jewish, you can’t call yourself a Jew. This just brings us back to “Jewish” being both an ethnicity and a religion. My father was Jewish. My mother isn’t. I’m ethnically 1/2 Jewish. I’m not a member of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/113 "2014-09-18T16:59:19Z")
My wife is Cherokee of the Tahlequah Cherokees although she would like to change allegiance to the Smoky Mountain band. There is a pretty easy determination of one’s native American heritage. The next time someone claims it, ask if they have their CBID. If they don’t know what one is, they likely are NA by family stories. When the Govt says you are NA, then you are. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/114 "2014-09-18T17:41:20Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > This just brings us back to “Jewish” being both an ethnicity and a religion. My father was Jewish. My mother isn’t. I’m ethnically 1/2 Jewish. I’m not a member of the religion. That’s pretty much what I said. If you wanted to be a member of the religion, you would need to convert. But if your father was an Ashkenazic Jew, and you married a woman whose father, but not mother, was also an Ashkenazic Jew, while neither of you would be Jewish, you would still do well to get tested for the Tay-Sachs gene before you have children. On the flip side of what the OP is complaining about, I have met people who said their primary identity was black (or African-American), but they were pretty sure they had small amount of [name of tribe, which I don’t recall] in their ancestry, and like every African-American, they had some white people in their lineage. I’ve also had white people say something similar regarding a trace of Asian or North African, but their ethnic identity is Irish, or Italian, or Greek. It’s always white people, though, who seem to want to cling to that “1/16th Cherokee,” as though that informs their experience or personality more than the 1/2 WASP, or 1/4 Polish, even though they went to a private school in upstate New York, and were an Episcopalian altar boy (or girl), and know how to make pierogies from scratch, but can’t even count to five in the Cherokee language, and look at you blankly if you say “Tsalagi.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/115 "2014-09-18T17:52:29Z")
The Jewish ethnicity is something I struggle with. I come from a mix of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, but have no accurate history to work from. However, Judaism is not my religion, I’m areligious and I don’t want to give anyone a different impression, but I’m not anti-religious either. My wife comes from a mixed Sicilian-Irish-English-German background, but we tested for Tay Sachs anyway because of my background, incidence is high enough for concern. It’s difficult because Jews often think of me as Jewish, they recognize my jokes and cultural references. I know a bunch of Israeli non-practicing Orthodox Jews who are no different than I am but don’t understand why I don’t say I’m Jewish because they are no different than I am or numerous other Israeli Jews. So why don’t I just say I’m ethnically Jewish or something like that? I guess the main reason is because it shouldn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/116 "2014-09-18T17:53:47Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > It’s always white people, though, who seem to want to cling to that “1/16th Cherokee,” Well, for a lot of us, it’s a matter of being what amounts to an immigrant mongrel, and not really having an “american” ethnic group that we can point at as ours. Some people just roll with it, and some people claim ethnic groups that they’re only marginally a part of - 1/16 Cherokee is a good example, just like the millions of “Irish” or “Italian” or “German” or “Swedish” people out there in the US who have more in common with each other than anyone in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/117 "2014-09-18T17:58:30Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > There may have been a reason for that: back in the days when there were miscegenation laws, they varied from state to state, but in many states, someone who was “black” (1/8 or more) couldn’t marry a white person, but if your dark skin was due to being native American, even fully so, you could marry a white person in those same states. If you were 1/4 black, and had straightish hair and a long nose, and wanted to marry a white person, putting “Little Bird,” or something as your middle name on the marriage license application, so the clerk wouldn’t even ask, made perfect sense. Which is to say, it was through-the-looking-glass behavior, when that was where you were. You can hardly blame people for doing what they needed to do when faced with things like miscegenation laws. > > That said, I get what the OP is talking about. Every now and then, we get someone at the synagogue who had one Jewish grandfather (or great-grandfather), wasn’t raised with anything Jewish in the home, and may even have been raised in another religion, who demands to be treated like a regular Jew with no need to convert, who ought to be eligible to be synagogue president tomorrow, ought to be called to Torah, even though he knows no Hebrew, and it goes on. > > It would make me mad if I grew up on a reservation, and lived an authentic life, which meant that I didn’t have some privileges, and someone came out of the woodwork, and demanded to get the same few benefits I might also have from being authentic, and he had some thin trace of ancestry. > > It’s one thing to say that you have an native American ancestor, and another to assert that you _are_ Cherokee, or whatever, which I would understand to mean tribal membership. I mean, I have a single Irish great-great-great-grandparent (maybe just two greats-- I can’t remember), so I can say I have some Irish ancestry, but I’d be lying to say I’m Irish, or even that I’m Irish-American. I think this happens with many minorities. Periodically, people come into my shops claiming to be part Roma wanting to “become more involved with the Roma community”. But they know not a word of Romany (our language) in any dialect, know nothing about Roma religious tradiations and cultures or what they claim to know was obviously cribbed from a new age religious book, and worse admire and comform to social practices (sexual promiscuity in particular) which they believe are ours, but are in fact the fastest way to get denounced and shunned by actual Roma. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/118 "2014-09-18T18:05:15Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think this happens with many minorities. Periodically, people come into my shops claiming to be part Roma wanting to “become more involved with the Roma community”. But they know not a word of Romany (our language) in any dialect, know nothing about Roma religious tradiations and cultures or what they claim to know was obviously cribbed from a new age religious book, and worse admire and comform to social practices (sexual promiscuity in particular) which they believe are ours, but are in fact the fastest way to get denounced and shunned by actual Roma. Suppose someone told you they had Roma ancestors\* but knew nothing about it \*and _wanted to learn._ How would they be treated. Is it offensive if they’re being honest? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/119 "2014-09-18T18:31:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Suppose someone told you they had Roma ancestors\* but knew nothing about it \*and _wanted to learn._ How would they be treated. Is it offensive if they’re being honest? Probably a lot of them want to learn to tell fortunes and rock a head scarf. And they use the word “gypsy.” I’m sure that’s not true of all of them, but it’s true of enough to make ZPG wary. Kinda the way I’m wary of Christians who ask me to take them to a synagogue service, because Judaism is part of their Christian background. Don’t get me wrong, if someone wants to learn about Judaism for its own sake, even if they are treating it purely as an academic subject, I’m happy to oblige. It’s only when people want Judaism to somehow enhance their Christian experience that I get a bad taste in my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686/120 "2014-09-18T18:46:28Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Probably a lot of them want to learn to tell fortunes and rock a head scarf. And they use the word “gypsy.” I’m sure that’s not true of all of them, but it’s true of enough to make ZPG wary. Kinda the way I’m wary of Christians who ask me to take them to a synagogue service, because Judaism is part of their Christian background. Good point > [@](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, if someone wants to learn about Judaism for its own sake, even if they are treating it purely as an academic subject, I’m happy to oblige. It’s only when people want Judaism to somehow enhance their Christian experience that I get a bad taste in my mouth. I understand that. It’s related to the topic of the thread. And part of what I mentioned above, one reason I don’t want to identify myself as Jewish because I think it’s insulting to people who are practicing. I don’t have a lot of respect for people who call themselves ‘devout’ anything, because they’re usually not. But the exception is Orthodox Jews who make their religious practice a serious daily part of their lives. The most devout are some of the kindest nicest people I’ve ever met, and it’s not a simple lifestyle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-fellow-whiteys-who-think-they-are-native-american/698686.md?page=7)