# I pit my Mom, Grandma, Sister, Aunts, Uncles, and Friends **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 23, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529 "2006-10-23T03:25:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/141 "2006-10-25T00:31:06Z")
[Quote= **Bob55**] Yes, but you don’t have kids so it’s a difficult case. I know if you pushed one out you’d protect it with your dying breath. You’ve got 50,000 years of modern homosapiens behind that instinct. [/Quote] Do you not read the newspaper or listen to the news in any form? How can you make such an statement and expect to be taken seriously? There was a Pit thread here recently about a woman who took her infant by the legs and used it to hit her husband. There is the Andrea Yates case, where a woman drowned her children in the bathtub - chasing at least one of them down to catch him. How can you say something like this? Are you really that close-minded? Or are you just trying to stir people up? Or are you a bloody fucking idiot? And by the way, no threats were made about anything. You have been threatening a lot of women with imagined regrets, but no one has threatened you. You might want to take off your baby-shit smeared glasses and read a little more closely. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/142 "2006-10-25T00:33:55Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] #44 was no response, it was senseless. [/quote] How so? I pointed out that you were having trouble with one of your definitions. I then pointed out a flaw with your approach of “Didn’t you all have good childhoods?” - you can’t measure how well people who don’t have kids raise kids because, by their very nature, they don’t have kids. And even regardless of that, you didn’t respond and say “It was a senseless argument” until I called you on it. My accusation of you cherry-picking the mocking comments holds true. > [@](#): > > I addressed #84 if you actually read my responses when I discussed the “fornication does not lead to conception” argument. No, you did not. You merely said that contraception means that women now “hide” their fertility (what exactly did you mean by that, by the way?). My argument was a reponse to your statement - that we need to fornicate - saying that fornication no longer means children. We can fulfil that urge perfectly and not have a child. Thus, saying that we have an urge to fornicate built into our genes is not an argument for having kids. > [@](#): > > But who’s not reading who’s posts now? Oh that’s right, evidently you. Let’s see. I’ve responded to each of your posts in which you addressed me personally; you’ll have to take my word for it that I read your posts which did not. On the other hand, you responded only to my mocking comments (until I called you on it) and then said that you had only received mocking comments. Either you missed my posts completely (yet saw the mocking ones) or you’re lying. And that’s not an insult; it’s a logical inference. > [@](#): > > I didn’t address your gay comment because I don’t want to get off topic. How is it off-topic? We appear to be discussing your opinions on having children here. My question was about gay people not have children, and your views on that. It seems perfectly on topic to me - can you point out where I leapt off the topic onto a completely random new subject? > [@](#): > > But if you read my earlier definition of selfishness and needs vs wants, then yes, homosexuals fall into the selfish “need” category. They are only thinking of themselves. I did assume this would be what you meant, but I thought it would be fair to make sure you held such a homophobic view, rather than just assume it. Oh, and by the way… that argument doesn’t even make sense within your logic. You believe that we have a duty to pass on our genes. Assuming that homosexuality has some genetic component (as research has shown) or that upbringing is a factor (again, something that research has shown) it’s more likely that a homosexual parent will have a homosexual child. Logically, since homosexuality is less likely to lead to gene-passing-on, you should be very much against gay people having kids. Yet you’re not. Now, it’s one thing to have a poor opinion; opinions are subjective, after all. But having a logically incoherent argument even within your point of view? That’s just silly. [QUOTE=The Swan] I’m not 100% convinced that Bob isn’t trolling, at this point. I’ve been wrong about these things in the past (I think), but I’m having a hard time believing that any of this is for real. It’s just the right mix of ignore and nonsense. [/QUOTE] You’re more generous than I. The only thing that says to me he’s not a troll is his join date. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/143 "2006-10-25T00:37:31Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] You know, if I was flat-out wrong people would have ignored me long ago. [/quote] Right. That’s how it usually works on this board. That’s why threads about, say, young-Earth creationism never last more than a half-dozen posts. > [@](#): > > But the fact that you actually take the time to address my “you are selfish” argument shows that really there is some deep-seeded hatred in many of you for the truth I speak. You haven’t _made_ an argument. You’ve just made a bunch of assertions. > [@](#): > > You really, really, really hate society for some reason or another, and feel that you must prove me wrong at all costs because it will in a sense validate your selfish and materialistic lives. No, no, no. You’ve got it all wrong. I don’t hate society. I love society. Society is awesome. What I hate are morons who insult me because I’m not just like them, make sweeping, sexist statements with no basis in science, and then pull a martyr act when they’re called on their general imbecility and assholishness. > [@](#): > > #44 was no response, it was senseless. I addressed #84 if you actually read my responses when I discussed the “fornication does not lead to conception” argument. But who’s not reading who’s posts now? Oh that’s right, evidently you. I didn’t address your gay comment because I don’t want to get off topic. But if you read my earlier definition of selfishness and needs vs wants, then yes, homosexuals fall into the selfish “need” category. They are only thinking of themselves. _And_ you’re a homophobe! You’re really firing on all cylinders, aren’t you? > [@](#): > > OMG IT’S TEH PIT I MUST FLAME SOMEONE AND FLAME THEIR KIDS TOO RAR. I think you’ve found your intellectual metier. > [@](#): > > Yes, you can use impressive words like “dickcheese” and tell someone to stick things into light sockets (which is on some level a threat and bannable), I bow to you. If you that’s what you think I said, go ahead and report me. I’m confident that nothing is going to happen to me, though, because unlike you, the mods aren’t illiterate morons. > [@](#): > > For that, you win the argument because I cannot compete with such immeasurable intellect. As for my intelligence, well that would be a Ph.D. in Molecular Cell Biology but hey, what do I know. From your posts in this thead, you don’t know shit about biology, so I’m going to tack “liar” onto the previous list of character traits you’ve exhibited in this thread. > [@](#): > > Whether or not they did is objective. Did they make it a better place for native Americans? Hrm maybe I’ll go ask one, oh wait they’re only 0.2% of the population now. Thanks Newton and Mr. Paine. Again, selfishness - they made the world a better place for _you_, they made _your_ life easier. But they didn’t for everybody. Did you just accuse Isaac Newton of killing off the Indians? My God, your idiocy is unfathomable. > [@](#): > > No, the reason is because I am one of the few people actually speaking up and I represent “the red states”. No, you don’t. There are a lot of conservative posters on the boards who are smart, polite, and interesting. You, on the other hand, are a dishonest boor, and this would be true regardless of your political persuasion. **Bricker** represents the red states. **Sarahfeena** represents the red states. You represent inbreeding and severe head trauma. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, the mentality of The Pit for whatever reason is of “the blue states”. And nothing gets a person in a blue state going like somebody else dare offering a difference of opinion. Oh we’re supposed to be “open to discussion”, but here we are, shutting down the discussion when it doesn’t suit your needs. Who’s shutting you down? People are laughing at you because your opinions are so pitifully devoid of thought and knowledge, but no one’s actually preventing you from speaking. We all wish you’d shut up voluntarily, of course, because taunting morons can only entertain for so long, and you’re alredy becoming tiresome, but no one’s preventing you from speaking. > [@](#): > > People are just upset that the core of my argument - they are selfish - is irrefutable. Your argument has as much validity as the flat Earth theory. It doesn’t need to be refuted. It’s patently absurd on its face. > [@](#): > > I do accept other’s viewpoints, but I’m allowed to have my own as well. If they don’t want to have kids, more power to them and I won’t stop them, but I am allowed to conclude as to why they will not. And my conclusion is they are selfish. That’s my viewpoint. Everyone else is sure judgemental about me, but the second I put my idea forward (that again represents the majority of the country) I get reamed and called a “judgemental prick”. Right. Calling other people “selfish” because they’re not exactly like you isn’t in the least insulting or judgemental! There’s absolutely no reason for anyone to take offense to what you’ve posted! Putz. > [@](#): > > That would be their choice, and I would tell them my opinion but I wouldn’t _force_ anyone to have kids. No, you’d just be an insufferable, smug, condescending prick to them. > [@](#): > > The Pit != excuse to go off on someone in a way you wouldn’t do in person. If you want to provide a phone number, or even a meeting place, I would be more than happy to repeat everything I’ve said in this thread to you in person. > [@](#): > > Everything I’ve said today I would say to someone in person, as my opinion. But I seriously doubt anyone would call me a “dickcheese” IRL. It’s not polite and I expect the same treatment even when anonymity is involved. Sorry to hold you all to such high standards as common decency. Your behavior in this thread has been neither polite, nor decent, and in return, you have been treated in kind. I do, however, believe that you’d behave exactly the same way in real life. Assholes are assholes, no matter what the venue. > [@](#): > > I never claimed to be “smart”. I have a Ph.D. in Molecular Cell Biology… Liar. > [@](#): > > … and would fare pretty well against someone in that field. But I didn’t realize that someone’s intelligence affected whether or not they had a right to the First Ammendment? Ah, yes, the final defence of the loud-mouthed idiot. The first ammendment applies to _government interference_ with free speech. Private entities are allowed to restrict free speech to any extent they can. The government has to let you spout off whatever ignorant nonsense passes through the soggy mass of rotten cheesecloth you use as a brain. _I_ do not. > [@](#): > > Sorry my viewpoint hits home so hard, but again I represent the majority of America, not the minority. So don’t kill the messenger. And don’t use your anonymity as an excuse to be a jerk to someone just because you can. I doubt you treat anyone IRL with such disrespect. My email is in my profile. It uses my real name. I don’t need anonymity to call you an idiot. Like I said, I’d be happy to do it in person. > [@](#): > > Show me this evidence you claim exists that counters my selfish/materialistic argument? Show us some evidence that your claim has any basis in fact, first. We can’t rebut an argument you’ve never made. > [@](#): > > You can’t find a single person who doesn’t want to have kids that has a legitamate unselfish reason, especially on these boards where people clearly have the free time to have kids, but they’d prefer to use that time moping around on a message board feeling bad for themselves and having a pity party with their buddies because someone dare suggested they get some reason in their life and have children. I don’t pity myself at all. I pity you, because you can’t find any higher purpose to your life than rutting like an animal. But that’s your problem, not mine. > [@](#): > > Yes, they are faulting me for stating my opinion. Nearly everyone in this thread has. My opinion is that their choices are wrong, sorry I don’t sugar coat it. As DianaG said to me “It’s the Pit. Suck it up”. That’s because your opinions are faulty. You have a right to state your opinions. You do not have a right to have those opinions respected. You say stupid shit like you have in this thread, people will call you stupid. That’s how life works. Grow up and get over it. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry that the fact that you are a slave to your chromosomes hurts so many people. “WE’RE BETTER THAN OUR CHROMOSOMES WE SWEAR”. No, you aren’t. 50,000 years of humanity, and 2 billion years of life says otherwise, or else you wouldn’t be here. Everything you do is due to your genes. Even the thought of “no I have overcome them” is a result of your genes. If everything is the result of my genes, then me not wanting to have kids is a result of my genes. Are you even bright enough to realize how self-defeating your entire argument is? No, of course you aren’t. What was I thinking? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/144 "2006-10-25T00:48:13Z")
I just hit 30 (and I’ve been here since I was 22. That’s so _weird_) and I am starting to have to really, seriously decide whether or not I want to have kids. What’s interesting is that the reason not to is that I love what I do and I have a powerful sense I am doing good in the world–I teach at a public school, and right now that sucks up all of my emotional energy. I’m the cool teacher, the one kids come and talk to, the one that puts together college applications for kids that have no family members in college, who listens when they have boy/girl issues, who goes to every football game and volleyball match and orchetra concert. I’m the one that gets notes that say “Thanks for teaching me English, but even more, thanks for teaching me about life.” And I love it. And I’d have to give it up to have kids. I could still teach, but not like this. I couldn’t love my students this much, I couldn’t answer the phone at midnight when they don’t understand their research paper or just got arrested (both have happened!) I couldn’t stay out past nine on school related events three nights out of five. I’m still torn on what to do, but I don’t see how my life now is a selfish one, and it bugs me that you could be one of my student’s parents, sitting there quietly dismissing all I do as selfish because of my childlessness. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/145 "2006-10-25T00:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] Ahh, I see the zerg rush has continued in my absence. You know, if I was flat-out wrong people would have ignored me long ago. But the fact that you actually take the time to address my “you are selfish” argument shows that really there is some deep-seeded hatred in many of you for the truth I speak. You really, really, really hate society for some reason or another, and feel that you must prove me wrong at all costs because it will in a sense validate your selfish and materialistic lives. [/quote] No. If you want pure honesty, people are replying to you because it’s fun to kick around a dimwit. I enjoy watching newer posters pounce because it’s like watching a kitten attack a stuffed mouse. They’re sharpening their debate skills in the way that a kitten sharpens its hunting skills. > [@](#): > > They are only thinking of themselves. Here’s a thought: what if all those gay folks adopted children. (You know, the thousands of children out there who were beaten, starved, raped and neglected by their chock-full-of-maternal-instinct mothers?) I suppose they could go though a surrogate, if you think it’s that important to have a genetic replica, but wouldn’t it be even more of a benefit to society to take in one of the kids who are already here? > [@](#): > > Your wit is admirable. And my words hurt you because it’s a deeper truth that you cannot stand to face. We’ve already faced it. That’s the SDMB slogan: “Fighting Ignorance Since 1973 (It’s taking longer than we thought.)” We’ve already accepted the enormous number of ignorant people bumping around in the world. That doesn’t mean we have to _like_ it. > [@](#): > > Whether or not they did is objective. Did they make it a better place for native Americans? Hrm maybe I’ll go ask one, oh wait they’re only 0.2% of the population now. Thanks Newton and Mr. Paine. Again, selfishness - they made the world a better place for _you_, they made _your_ life easier. But they didn’t for everybody. I take it your kids are going to solve all of the world’s problems, are they? Tell me, what have your kids done for the genocide victims in Darfur? > [@](#): > > No, the reason is because I am one of the few people actually speaking up and I represent “the red states”. Unfortunately, the mentality of The Pit for whatever reason is of “the blue states”. And nothing gets a person in a blue state going like somebody else dare offering a difference of opinion. Oh we’re supposed to be “open to discussion”, but here we are, shutting down the discussion when it doesn’t suit your needs. I’m sure you’ll be shocked, \*shocked \*to find out that there are conservatives on this board who are highly respected. They get in debates just like everyone else. > [@](#): > > People are just upset that the core of my argument - they are selfish - is irrefutable. Sweetie, there ain’t much in this world that _isn’t_ refutable. > [@](#): > > I do accept other’s viewpoints, but I’m allowed to have my own as well. If they don’t want to have kids, more power to them and I won’t stop them, but I am allowed to conclude as to why they will not. And my conclusion is they are selfish. That’s my viewpoint. Everyone else is sure judgemental about me, but the second I put my idea forward (that again represents the majority of the country) I get reamed and called a “judgemental prick”. You know, once upon a time, it was the majority of the country’s opinion that blacks were inferior people who should have to sit at the back of the bus. “Majority” does not equal “right.” > [@](#): > > I never claimed to be “smart”. I have a Ph.D. in Molecular Cell Biology, and would fare pretty well against someone in that field. But I didn’t realize that someone’s intelligence affected whether or not they had a right to the First Ammendment? You’ve said that twice now. Apparently YOU think it’s important, but you know, I haven’t seen the other people in this thread hastening to lay out their educational credentials. They tend to let their words speak for themselves. Quoth Lissa, who has only a high-school diploma. (And an unaccredited one at that.) > [@](#): > > Show me this evidence you claim exists that counters my selfish/materialistic argument? You can’t find a single person who doesn’t want to have kids that has a legitamate unselfish reason, especially on these boards where people clearly have the free time to have kids, but they’d prefer to use that time \*\*moping around on a message board feeling bad for themselves \*\*and having a pity party with their buddies because someone dare suggested they **get some reason in their life** and have children. You whine and complain about how poorly you’ve been treated and then you use words like the ones I bolded. Does the hostility make sense now? You’re using inflamatory language, so don’t be surpised if you get it back in spades. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/146 "2006-10-25T00:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] Maternal instinct is in you. Maybe the world today doesn’t promote it for one reason or another, but it’s there. [/QUOTE] You’ve never met me, you don’t know anything about me that I haven’t revealed on this board, and you aren’t even in the same state as me, but you feel comfortable making pronouncements about me that are in direct contradiction with what I’ve said about myself. God, is that you? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/147 "2006-10-25T01:00:36Z")
Ok, a couple of things. I’ve had a look through Bob55’s post history to see if I could find any evidence that he was trolling, but nope, his views today are the same as they have been for years. [Cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5532959#post5532959) from 2002; [QUOTE=Bob55] IMHO everything that exists today is a result of survival of the fittest, you, me, religion, war, society…Religion very well may be responsible for war and pestilence, but that is neither provable nor unprovable. But war, like religion, is a “meme” and is a means to achieve survival of your ways and your memes. I’d ask the Carthagineans but they died at the hand of the memes of the Romans. Even something like compassion for those unfit for survival can be seen as survival of the fittest as the result of the meme “compassion” which prevails throughout society. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > I’m not going to smother this debate with intellectualism - I’ve made many points and supported them with specific examples, but still you take it apart word by word without offering counterpoints. We obviously won’t make any headway with each other, and as I already said I only wanted to provide the reason for religious core beliefs and why they still exist today. You can pick it apart all you want but you’d only be running from the facts that I’ve presented, and I’m not going to go do a second thesis just to prove my point. Call it Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc if you must, but it sounds like you’re only trying to bombard my theories and ideas - many based in facts - with overly-complicated responses for ‘damage control’ because you don’t like what I have to say. You are obviously very intelligent but sometimes overanalysis can result in ignoring the facts and the loss of practicality. > Liberal, in response to “survival of the fittest”, I fail to see the difference between it and adaptiveness. Adaptiveness is more than just survival, it can definitely be successfully applied to politics, religion, and life. > > SolGrundy, you are more likely to contract a disease from homosexual intercouse compared to heterosexual sex, due to less protection offered by the cells in the anus. I do grant that promiscuity is required, but homosexuals have been shown to be more promiscuous. But I’m not debating the specifics of homosexuality, I was presenting background and my theories as to why certain core religious beliefs exist. As I stated earlier the choice should be yours and individuals of a government or church has no right telling others what they can and can’t do with their bodies. And, again to be fair, his post history does show some good knowledge of molecular biology, and he’s claimed to be a medical researcher before also. So i’m inclined to believe he may, in fact, have a PhD. So, probably not a troll and not lying in this case. See, **Bob55** , I am objective. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/148 "2006-10-25T01:23:17Z")
Most of my reasons for not wanting children have been touched on already by other posters who are more eloquent than me, but there’s a couple that I’d like to re-touch on. There’s a pretty big reason that I don’t want to have children - My husband has a genetic syndrome/disorder-y thing that has a 50% rate of transmission regardless of the gender of the child. So if I fall pregnant, there’s a half-and-half chance that our child may develop the same genetic disorder. Now the symptoms of this disorder vary widely. My husband has a relatively “mild” case, which means that he was born with a cleft palate that had to be fixed with surgery as a baby, has almost completely lost sight in one eye due to retinal detachment, and has had to have surgery on the other in order to stop him from losing sight there as well (again childhood surgery), lack of collagen in his joints which means a higher probability of early-onset arthritis, and heart problems that at the moment are confined to a mild arrythmia, but may or may not increase as he ages. There are degrees of symptoms that are worse than that, up to the point where death before the 20s is not uncommon. I believe you can do genetic testing for this syndrome in utero, that’s fine. But what you can’t do is test how severe it is going to be, until the child is born - or just about to be. They may have nothing more than some slight facial deformity, or they may have the whole gamut of symptoms and die in their teens. So if I did fall pregnant, even if I did know whether the child would have the syndrome or not, I would not know how severe it would be. If the child was born, and it was one of the most severe cases, then of course we would try to do as much as we could to give the child a normal life. But that would involve surgeries, and lots of them. Now even though here in AU we have a socialised healthcare system, surgery is still expensive. We can’t afford to pay outright for the number and degree of surgeries that would be needed in a severe case of this syndrome, so we would have to rely on medicare. Other people’s tax dollars at work, to pay for the fact that our child needs surgery just to have a semi-normal shot at life. With no guarantee that other complications may not arise in the future, or that our child may die before even getting a chance to pass on their own genetic legacy and/or repay those tax dollars that were spent on getting them there. Now I know I said there’s a 50% chance that the child will have the syndrome, which also means that there’s a 50% chance that they won’t. But I’m not ready to play that kind of russian roulette with a child’s life, happiness and wellbeing. Not to mention the fact that even if our child doesn’t have the syndrome, they are still a carrier and have the same chances of passing it on to their own children. There’s also the fact that at the moment (not through lack of trying) my husband is in a temporary job role, that may not be around in a couple of months. We don’t know if his next job will be permanent or if it will be another temporary role. It’s just the way the job market works here. We could support ourselves plus a baby on both of our salaries, and be quite comfortable. But if I’m on maternity leave and his temporary contract expires, what then? He can’t claim unemployment, because he’s not a permanent resident (he emigrated from England). If I’m not working, and he’s not working then there’s a net amount of $0 incoming to our household. Sure, we can live off our credit cards until he finds work again, or my maternity leave expires, but then what? We’re both having to work to pay off our debts incurred whilst out of work. Money spent paying off debts is less money that can be dedicated to the child, and buying things that they need/want. That is why I get so offended when people badger me about when we’re having children. It’s not just some stupid whim that’s led me to make these decisions. They’re things that I have considered, over and over again, and looked at from every angle. If you have kids, more power to you. If you want to have kids, but are waiting for the right time or are trying at the moment, then that’s great. But I reserve the right to make my own reproductive decisions, based on my knowledge of my financial, physical and mental health, without being badgered, judged or dismissed for my decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/149 "2006-10-25T01:30:16Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] And, again to be fair, his post history does show some good knowledge of molecular biology, and he’s claimed to be a medical researcher before also. So i’m inclined to believe he may, in fact, have a PhD. [/QUOTE] How do you think he got it? Collected enough Wheaties box-tops? ---
**Author:** ![Hanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b3f665/32.png) [@Hanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hanna)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/150 "2006-10-25T01:36:27Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] Yes, but you don’t have kids so it’s a difficult case. I know if you pushed one out you’d protect it with your dying breath. You’ve got 50,000 years of modern homosapiens behind that instinct. [/QUOTE] As a matter of fact, I have “pushed one out”. My maternal instinct did NOT kick in and I placed her for adoption. So I do not consider myself to have “had kids”, and I still can’t stand the sound of a crying baby - mine or anyone elses. I know you’ll come back and say it is a good thing I gave my baby up, but I already know that, duh. And I’m not ashamed to admit I’m selfish. That’s between me, myself and I, and should not concern anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Swan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Swan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Swan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/151 "2006-10-25T02:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] OAnd, again to be fair, his post history does show some good knowledge of molecular biology, and he’s claimed to be a medical researcher before also. So i’m inclined to believe he may, in fact, have a PhD. So, probably not a troll and not lying in this case. See, **Bob55** , I am objective. 🙂 [/QUOTE] You could be right. Bob could, in fact, be an extremely intelligent, intellectually dishonest, ultra-conservative molecular biologist with a large misunderstanding of the first amendment. He certainly could. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/152 "2006-10-25T03:18:23Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] I’m sorry that the fact that you are a slave to your chromosomes hurts so many people. “WE’RE BETTER THAN OUR CHROMOSOMES WE SWEAR”. No, you aren’t. 50,000 years of humanity, and 2 billion years of life says otherwise, or else you wouldn’t be here. Everything you do is due to your genes. Even the thought of “no I have overcome them” is a result of your genes. [/QUOTE] Does my butt look fat in these genes? ---
**Author:** ![Bob55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Bob55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob55)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/153 "2006-10-25T07:23:42Z")
Phew…where to begin, a lot has happened since our last encounter. I’ve evidently been called a “troll” even though I’ve been at the SDMB before many of you (I just normally stick to the General Questions and Cafe Society, but occasionally a Pit thread catches my eye), and I’ve also been told that essentially I have a warped view of the First Ammendment because I dare spoke my opinion. [QUOTE=quilter] Inform me? INFORM me? Unless you can cite double-blind scientific research, the only thing you’re qualified to inform me about is your own opinion. [/QUOTE] I’ve said many times that it’s my opinion. [QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Observations are best left to being about matters that you personally have observed. [/QUOTE] I thought there was such thing as sampling? And as for the people here, I’ve already said they don’t represent the “norm” of society, I doubt that the average American spends their time on a message board. They’re too busy with that little thing called “life”. I was only trying to defend the society that so many here appear to loathe. [QUOTE=The Swan] Cite? Not that you’ll produce one. [/QUOTE] Billy Madison. [QUOTE=The Swan] I’m not 100% convinced that Bob isn’t trolling, at this point. I’ve been wrong about these things in the past (I think), but I’m having a hard time believing that any of this is for real. It’s just the right mix of ignore and nonsense. [/QUOTE] Yup, Charter Member. I know it hurts. I’m really only here for the important stuff that goes on in GQ, but sometimes I’ve got to step into this realm of unreality and defend Conservatism, religion, society, capitalism, and many other things that seem to be under constant assault here because it’s the non-conformist thing to do. [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] How so? I pointed out that you were having trouble with one of your definitions. I then pointed out a flaw with your approach of “Didn’t you all have good childhoods?” - you can’t measure how well people who don’t have kids raise kids because, by their very nature, they don’t have kids. And even regardless of that, you didn’t respond and say “It was a senseless argument” until I called you on it. My accusation of you cherry-picking the mocking comments holds true. [/QUOTE] I can’t rehash every argument I’ve presented with you every thread. You expect me to repeat every sentence, and unfortunately I don’t have all night to go back and forth with you. What it boils down to is you disagree with my opinion, and I yours. I answered your earlier quests the best I could, maybe if you could summarize what you want me to respond to in a list or a few sentences it’d be easier. And yes again, Charter Member so don’t go throwing the “troll” thing around like you’re in a place to do that now just to try to win the argument. I don’t have time for your hit-and-run offense of “he’s cherry-picking” or “it’s illogical”, I need specifics, and short and sweet please I’ve got 50 other people to address. **Miller** , you are a very angry person that is evidently out to get people who dare express an opinion different than yours. I won’t respond to your choppy replies of “liar” or “idiot” or “dickcheese” or “have your kid stick his finger in the light socket” anymore. [QUOTE=Lissa] No. If you want pure honesty, people are replying to you because it’s fun to kick around a dimwit. I enjoy watching newer posters pounce because it’s like watching a kitten attack a stuffed mouse. They’re sharpening their debate skills in the way that a kitten sharpens its hunting skills. We’ve already faced it. That’s the SDMB slogan: “Fighting Ignorance Since 1973 (It’s taking longer than we thought.)” We’ve already accepted the enormous number of ignorant people bumping around in the world. That doesn’t mean we have to _like_ it. I take it your kids are going to solve all of the world’s problems, are they? I’m sure you’ll be shocked, \*shocked \*to find out that there are conservatives on this board who are highly respected. They get in debates just like everyone else. You know, once upon a time, it was the majority of the country’s opinion that blacks were inferior people who should have to sit at the back of the bus. “Majority” does not equal “right.” You’ve said that twice now. Apparently YOU think it’s important, but you know, I haven’t seen the other people in this thread hastening to lay out their educational credentials. They tend to let their words speak for themselves. [/QUOTE] Hrm, dimwit. Again, resorting to the namecalling to someone with a difference of opinion. I don’t get deep-seeded hatred you have for someone different than you. I thought you were supposed to be the “tolerant” one here. Evidently that only works if I agree with you. No, my kids aren’t going to solve the world’s problems. I just want them to be happy in whatever road they choose. Even if that’s to not have kids. And yes, I would be shocked to find a respect for any conservative ideas around here. I’ve seen how anyone who expresses my beliefs is treated, and it isn’t very respectfully. It’s bashing, seething hatred at the core. It’s anger. It’s rage. It’s an “I’m more intellectual than you” approach. Wow, I am in awe of your great intellect, I’m sure it will take you far in life. So far that you will be on a message board calling others dimwits for their opinions to make yourself feel better about your choices. [QUOTE=DeadlyAccurate] You’ve never met me, you don’t know anything about me that I haven’t revealed on this board, and you aren’t even in the same state as me, but you feel comfortable making pronouncements about me that are in direct contradiction with what I’ve said about myself. God, is that you? [/QUOTE] Again, it’s called sampling. I’ll sure bet that you believe those poll numbers they put on the news that says the democrats are going to win the house and senate. Or a study that links certain activities with disease? Oh did they poll or study me? No. They took a small sample of the country, and multiplied it. [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Ok, a couple of things. I’ve had a look through Bob55’s post history to see if I could find any evidence that he was trolling, but nope, his views today are the same as they have been for years. [Cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5532959#post5532959) from 2002; And, again to be fair, his post history does show some good knowledge of molecular biology, and he’s claimed to be a medical researcher before also. So i’m inclined to believe he may, in fact, have a PhD. So, probably not a troll and not lying in this case. See, **Bob55** , I am objective. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I appreciate the research, you can see that my ideas and opinions are my own and my posts are consistant, and I express them here in select Pit threads from time to time. And yes, as much as you all would like to call me a “dimwit” and take your hatred out on me, I do, in fact, have a Ph.D. And have been published in Nature for my work on cancer metastasis. So no, casting a stigma of stupidity on me will not work. I know that’s been part of the plan when approached by an opinion that makes you gasp in horror, but as much as you can try it will not work here. [QUOTE=Sierra Indigo] Most of my reasons for not wanting children have been touched on already by other posters who are more eloquent than me, but there’s a couple that I’d like to re-touch on. There’s a pretty big reason that I don’t want to have children - My husband has a genetic syndrome/disorder-y thing that has a 50% rate of transmission regardless of the gender of the child. So if I fall pregnant, there’s a half-and-half chance that our child may develop the same genetic disorder. That is why I get so offended when people badger me about when we’re having children. It’s not just some stupid whim that’s led me to make these decisions. They’re things that I have considered, over and over again, and looked at from every angle. If you have kids, more power to you. If you want to have kids, but are waiting for the right time or are trying at the moment, then that’s great. But I reserve the right to make my own reproductive decisions, based on my knowledge of my financial, physical and mental health, without being badgered, judged or dismissed for my decisions. [/QUOTE] I would never badger someone about having children, in your case especially. I’m sorry about your situation, as I have family with Muscular Dystrophy. My family though chose to have children, and several have the disease now and it is very hard to watch. The only reason I am telling my opinions to those in this thread is because it was a pow wow against society’s “norm” of having children, and I felt as a father I should speak up for society and offer our opinion in the case of the OP. While your reasons are legitamate and do not fall into the category of “selfishness” I was categorizing earlier, most people here said “I like my life the way it is and I don’t want to have to wake up early” as their reason for not wanting children. I’d liek to say though that your post was one of the few reasonable ones in this thread, where someone offered a difference of opinion to me and we can have a discussion on it. Thank you for not following suit and being nasty just because it’s allowed here. You are an example to everyone else of how a mature discussion can happen, even in The Pit. [QUOTE=Miller] How do you think he got it? Collected enough Wheaties box-tops? [/QUOTE] Wow it’s Miller again, throwing out more personal insults. If you can’t offer anything constructive to the discussion why do you post? For attention? For a giggle as you hit the “submit” button? Next time write it, but then maybe just close the window after the preview please. [QUOTE=The Swan] You could be right. Bob could, in fact, be an extremely intelligent, intellectually dishonest, ultra-conservative molecular biologist with a large misunderstanding of the first amendment. He certainly could. [/QUOTE] Oh no it’s a conservative and his evil opinions! And he dares to use freedom of speech! Everybody run! See, this is a perfect example of what I’ve been saying all along - ANYONE who expresses a different opinion from the majority of posters in The Pit - especially if that opinion dares represent the views of 50% of the nation (i.e. more conservative), then said person should burn in a fiery pit of the ensuing flamewar that attacks his intelligence, his intolerance, his narrow-mindedness, his judging of everyone, rather than just having a normal discussion on the matter at hand. This is why I’m so adament that people who wish to discuss ideas with me refrain from personal insults. It’s not that I can’t take it (sticks and stones…), it’s that people use “he’s a dimwit” as a crutch because they cannot actually refute the argument. It’s a last-ditch effort of a losing battle to start throwing out personal insults. It’s especially funny when facts aren’t even involved, but opinions (even after I’ve said myself 50 times that it’s my opinion). ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/154 "2006-10-25T07:27:25Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] Hrm, dimwit. Again, resorting to the namecalling to someone with a difference of opinion. [/QUOTE] Dude. I’m serious this time. Do you _not_ get what you’re doing here? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Push\_Up\_Bra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/edb3f5/32.png) [@Freudian\_Push\_Up\_Bra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Push_Up_Bra)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/155 "2006-10-25T08:00:42Z")
In all seriousness **Bob55** , you’ve certainly changed my point of view. I went from thinking that I should grow up and have kids eventually but now I am damn sure that I will avoid procreating at all costs. I’ve only ever held an inkling of maternal instinct, but now I am sure that I will be fine with just taking care of other people’s kids. Or I could adopt, but that doesn’t count because I’m not passing on my genes. Much love, **Freudian Push Up Bra** who will never ever get knocked up. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/156 "2006-10-25T08:12:48Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] Phew…where to begin, a lot has happened since our last encounter. I’ve evidently been called a “troll” even though I’ve been at the SDMB before many of you (I just normally stick to the General Questions and Cafe Society, but occasionally a Pit thread catches my eye), and I’ve also been told that essentially I have a warped view of the First Ammendment because I dare spoke my opinion. [/quote] Nobody thinks you have a warped view of the First Amendment. However, you do not understand how it is applied. You’ve repeatedly stressed how you represent the majority of Americans, and on this point I think you might be right – a LOT of people make the same mistake about the First Amendment. As has been previously stated, the First Amendment restricts the government’s ability to interfere with free speech (and a bunch of other stuff). At what point in this thread did a governmental entity do anything to you? [QUOTE=Bob55] Hrm, dimwit. Again, resorting to the namecalling to someone with a difference of opinion. I don’t get deep-seeded hatred you have for someone different than you. I thought you were supposed to be the “tolerant” one here. Evidently that only works if I agree with you. [/QUOTE] Since I’m thinking about it, the term you’re looking for is “deep-seated.” I will admit that “deep-seeded” does paint an interesting word picture all its own, but the proper term is “deep-seated.” I offer this not to try to tear you down, but merely as a tidbit of information you may find useful. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/157 "2006-10-25T09:04:08Z")
Not to knock the deliberately childless too hard, but I always wonder if they relish the thought of dying alone. ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/158 "2006-10-25T09:48:02Z")
[QUOTE=Lizard] Not to knock the deliberately childless too hard, but I always wonder if they relish the thought of dying alone. [/QUOTE] I don’t relish the thought of dying alone. Otherwise I wouldn’t have married my husband (who I do plan on being with until my dying day). There’s just other considerations that have led me to make the choices I’ve made, and the need to have a “comfort blanket” when dying is the least of those. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/159 "2006-10-25T10:13:12Z")
[QUOTE=pimaspinner] Does my butt look fat in these genes? [/QUOTE] Not in those genes, no. In those genes, it’s just dandy 😃 **Lizard** , my grandfather turned 93 on October 12. Grandma is turning 94 on November 1st. They’ve forbidden each other from “dying first and leaving me behind”. But what can I say, my own bet that obsexed Gramps goes first is as much wish as biology. And they’ve spent their 70+ year marriage fighting, literally “for fuck’s sake”, only they still fight (top of their lungs, both being pretty deaf) and don’t fuck much any more. My other grandfather died when he was 65; his wife followed him more than 20 years later. He died surrounded by his children; she had moved into a nursing home of her own choosing and by her own volition a few months before and was found, lying on her bed fully dressed with her rosary in her hands, by one of the nuns. How sure are you that Abuelita’s death was worse than Abuelito’s? She was, strictly speaking, alone. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529/160 "2006-10-25T10:32:10Z")
[QUOTE=Lizard] Not to knock the deliberately childless too hard, but I always wonder if they relish the thought of dying alone. [/QUOTE] If the other option is someone asking me, “So? Did you regret not having kids? I told you that you might, so did you?” then yeah, it sounds like a great idea. Hey **Bob55** , since I’ve yet to see you address any of my points (though perhaps I might have missed it in one of your interminable lists of tiny snipped quotes from lots of people), let me boil the discussion down this way: OP: I hate it when people try to convince me to have kids and think they know me better than I know myself. Bob: _tries to convince her that she should have kids_ Everyone but Bob: :smack: The OP did not say, “No one should have kids! Kids suck!” The OP did not say, “All people who have kids are selfish/evil/idiots.” So I don’t get why **Bob55** “cares” so much about the welfare of the childless/childfree/those who have no kids to the point where he claims to know all of their hearts and minds - PhD or no - better than they do. (In my support I’ll claim my grad school advisor, a star in the field of social psychology specializing in interpersonal relationships, married and no kids, in her late 50s when we met. If anyone would know the emotional “dangers” of not reproducing, she would.) And to emphasize a point I made earlier, just remember, **Bob55** - no matter how many children you have, no matter how many children the members of the SDMB have, we’ll never make a bit of difference in the human genome compared to what the vastness of humanity does. Furthermore, no matter how special you hold anyone’s DNA, they’re still sharing over 99% of it with a chimpanzee. Have as many kids as you want, but a few generations from now, anything you contributed will be more or less swamped by the contributions from other families. You and I are unique and special people, sure - just like everyone else, in this case 6 billion other people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-my-mom-grandma-sister-aunts-uncles-and-friends/377529.md?page=9)