# I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600 "2009-04-01T18:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/181 "2009-04-02T18:23:27Z")
The racists on this board really come out when they can hide their hate behind the borders and the English language. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/182 "2009-04-02T18:33:01Z")
The dimwits on this board lob charges of “racist” when they don’t have anything of value to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/183 "2009-04-02T18:35:56Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > The racists on this board really come out when they can hide their hate behind the borders and the English language. > **[Ad hominem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)** > > Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a diversion often using a totally irrelevant, but often highly charged attribute of the opponent's character or background. The most common form of this fallacy is "A" makes a claim of "fact",... ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/184 "2009-04-02T18:38:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No one has shown this. Can you direct me to what you are referring to? From the link provided by Eva Luna: “Nearly all Hispanic adults born in the United States of immigrant parents report they are fluent in English.” “The surveys show that fewer than one-in-four (23%) Latino immigrants reports being able to speak English very well. However, fully 88% of their U.S.-born adult children report that they speak English very well. Among later generations of Hispanic adults, the figure rises to 94%. Reading ability in English shows a similar trend.” “For most immigrants, English is not the primary language they use in either setting. **But for their grown children, it is**.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/185 "2009-04-02T18:41:15Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > From the link provided by Eva Luna: I adressed this link in the very next post. Did you miss it? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/186 "2009-04-02T18:43:55Z")
> [@digitalc](#): > > whatever it is they go through and continue to put up with is still a lot harder than what legal immigrants do, implying that somehow illegal aliens have it easier because they didn’t have to jump through the same legal hoops as legal aliens is no less moronic just because not everyone risks their lives crossing the border. Its not like people have a fucking choice of migrating here legally and chose to do it the hard way for the fucking hell of it. They don’t have any fucking right to migrate here in the first place, you fucking moron!!! ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/187 "2009-04-02T18:46:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I adressed this link in the very next post. Did you miss it? I guess I did. But here’s a new, better link for you: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051202575.html?wpisrc=newsletter](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051202575.html?wpisrc=newsletter) From the article: “Immigrants of the past quarter-century have been assimilating in the United States at a notably faster rate than did previous generations, according to a study released today.” Hope that helps. By the way, I’d like to point out that the two countries I count as mine, Cuba and Canada, are among the top scorers. I guess I’m almost an american. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/188 "2009-04-02T18:48:09Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > They don’t have any fucking right to migrate here in the first place, you fucking moron!!! Glad to see you take such a calm, reasoned approach to the discussion. It says volumes about you. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/189 "2009-04-02T19:03:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > As someone who is currently in the process of legally becoming a US resident, my experience with the whole process gives me precisely the opposite viewpoint. I completely understand why a poor person without much English, without much money, with little formal education, would do all he or she could to avoid the process. > > I am, in many ways, probably one of the most unproblematic immigration cases that the US immigration people have to deal with. > [ul] > [li]i’m married to a US citizen, so am not subject to quotas[/li][li]we had been married and living together for over 4 years before i even put in my residency application, making it unlikely that my marriage is one of mere convenience[/li][li]i’m from a country that is not among those considered problematic by US authorities[/li][li]my first language is English[/li][li]i’m have a college and postgraduate education[/li][li]my wife has a solid, professional job that pays, by itself, around the US median household income[/li][/ul]And even for me, the immigration process is a byzantine, labyrinthine succession of forms and tests and evidence and photocopies and pictures and statements. And it’s fucking expensive. I feel your pain. I’m in the same boat, except reversed. My wife is a non-US citizen, her first language is English, she’s got a college and post-graduate education (from a US university), I have a good job paying a bit more than the US median, etc. Yes, it’s byzantine, labyrinthine, expensive, process. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/190 "2009-04-02T19:06:10Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > I guess I did. But here’s a new, better link for you: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051202575.html?wpisrc=newsletter](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051202575.html?wpisrc=newsletter) > > From the article: > > “Immigrants of the past quarter-century have been assimilating in the United States at a notably faster rate than did previous generations, according to a study released today.” > > Hope that helps. It does not. I’m surprised that you would post it. The article nowhere claims that current immigrants are learning language faster than prior ones. English ability is but one of many factors that make up the “assimilation index”, and the article does not separate out the impact of this factor. The article suggest economic expansion as the prime reason for the increased rate of assimilation, which suggests that the major movement was in the economic components of the scale. (It also lumps in immigrants from different countries, but suggests that Mexicans in particular are less assimilated than others.) ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/191 "2009-04-02T19:09:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > To be quite honest, i have no simple solution for the issue of illegal immigration. > > On the one hand, i’ve never been much of a nationalist. If someone from India or China or Mexico gets a job, i don’t generally consider than an inferior solution to an American or an Australian getting a job. On the other hand, i recognize that national governments are elected to represent the interests of their citizens, and that the American government has some responsibility to consider jobs for Americans a higher priority than jobs for Indians or Chinese or Mexicans. > > I also realize that it would be pretty much impossible for America to take every single person who wants to come here and at the same time maintain the standard of living that we have. > > My main point in this thread, i guess, has been largely to counter the doomsayers who see the current levels of illegal immigration as threatening America’s very existence, and to point out the hypocrisy of an immigration policy that caters to xenophobia while not enacting policies and punishments that might actually check the demand for illegal immigrant workers here in the United States… Thanks for a thoughtful reply to my snarky post. I agree with your suggestions of more penaltys for those hiring illegal workers tied with amnesty for those already here. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/192 "2009-04-02T19:14:18Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > The dimwits on this board lob charges of “racist” when they don’t have anything of value to contribute. There’s no other reason not to want a class of people who prop up our economy, put more money into our system than they take out, add to our cultural and ethnic divrsity and value, and keep us from negative population growth. And, ASSHOLES, considering A) English is not our official language, and B) hispanics will outnumber us in a few decades, here’s a suggestion to YOU: get with the times and _ **¡Aprendes español!** _ ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/193 "2009-04-02T19:20:33Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > They don’t have any fucking right to migrate here in the first place, you fucking moron!!! I see absolutely nothing in the quoted text that contradicts your moronic post. Also, fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/194 "2009-04-02T19:20:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It does not. I’m surprised that you would post it. > > The article nowhere claims that current immigrants are learning language faster than prior ones. English ability is but one of many factors that make up the “assimilation index”, and the article does not separate out the impact of this factor. The article suggest economic expansion as the prime reason for the increased rate of assimilation, which suggests that the major movement was in the economic components of the scale. > > (It also lumps in immigrants from different countries, but suggests that Mexicans in particular are less assimilated than others.) You can quibble all you want. The data says immigrants to the US today are assimilating at a faster rate than ever before and language is a component of assimilation. You don’t like the findings? Take it up with the authors. So what if Mexicans are less assimilated than others? In any list someone has to come last, today is Mexicans, maybe 100 years ago it was Poles or Russians. The end result is the same, the day after tomorrow the son of the immigrant who mows you lawn today will probably be the doctor who treats your son for an ear infection. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/195 "2009-04-02T19:21:46Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Examples… > > Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn. African-Americans. Chinese-Americans. Italian-Americans. Greek-Americans (Astoria, Queens). There are communities where some (_some_) members tend to marry others of their ethnic background, even for several generations, even here in America, and they do retain specific cultural ‘markers’ (e.g. foods, religions, political opinions, manner of dress), even for several generations, even here in America. > > But you knew that, right? What, exactly, is your point here? As a third-generation American, I am _awfully_ curious. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/196 "2009-04-02T19:29:49Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > The data says immigrants to the US today are assimilating at a faster rate than ever before and language is a component of assimilation. But they don’t claim that they are assimilating faster than ever in all components. > [@](#): > > You don’t like the findings? Take it up with the authors. I have no beef with the authors, who are not making claims that are unsupported by their data. You are. > [@](#): > > So what if Mexicans are less assimilated than others? Because we happen to be discussing Spanish-speaking people. Mexicans speak Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/197 "2009-04-02T19:38:53Z")
BTW, I helped my counterpart (basically, my teaching partner when I was in Peace Corps) apply to the Green Card lottery. The lottery itself is pretty easy to fill out, but there is a lot of misinformation surrounding it. For one, she was convinced you have to pay to enter it because a lot of “immigration agencies” (ie, scam artists) advertise that they can help would-be migrants apply for a fee. I ended up emailing **Eva Luna** for advice and she explained that it’s free. Then, you need to supply a digital photograph of yourself, passport sized. Getting this can be pretty tough, depending on where you are. There was no place in our village to get this done; she had to travel to another town to have her picture taken. She borrowed my flash drive so she could bring it back to our village. The lottery form has to be done on the web. There are lots of parts of the world where internet access is…nonexistent. And even if it’s there, if you can’t speak English, it can be difficult/impossible to figure out how to google “green card lottery”, make sure you’re looking at the real, State Department entry form and not some scammer, and follow the directions properly. My counterpart has a college degree, knows some English, and is pretty good with computers and it still turned into a fairly complex process, even with my assistance. I don’t really know how the process could be made to be any easier, though. Like I said, the form itself is simple enough to fill out. Just that some of the barriers to get to the form can be unsurmountable for some people. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/198 "2009-04-02T19:39:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But they don’t claim that they are assimilating faster than ever in all components.I have no beef with the authors, who are not making claims that are unsupported by their data. You are. > > Because we happen to be discussing Spanish-speaking people. Mexicans speak Spanish. No, you are tap dancing around the findings discussed in the article. Assimilation includes language, like it or not. Mexicans speak Spanish, so do Cubans and Dominicans, they are not ranked at the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/199 "2009-04-02T20:01:11Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > No, you are tap dancing around the findings discussed in the article. Assimilation includes language, like it or not. It seems obvious to me that if you have an aggregate score comprised of multiple components, you can’t prove anything about any one particular component by citing the aggregate score. You seem to be denying this, and consider pointing it out to be “tap dancing”. So be it. I have nothing further to add. > [@](#): > > Mexicans speak Spanish, so do Cubans and Dominicans, they are not ranked at the bottom. That’s true. I imagine that the Cubans have a big edge in that they have been here a relatively long time, and the core of the community was upper/middle class refugees from Castro. You’ll notice that they scored particularly high in economic versus the other factors. I don’t know about Dominicans. I seized on Mexicans because the author of the article himself commented on Mexicans scoring low. In any event that was a parenthetical remark. My main point was, as above, that you can’t assume an aggregate score is reflected in every component. You seem to disagree with this, and we’ve reached an impasse on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/200 "2009-04-02T20:09:05Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > What, exactly, is your point here? As a third-generation American, I am _awfully_ curious. I think the point is that these immigrants have some nerve retaining a link, however tenuous, to their heritage. They even tend to marry within their ethnic background, which is something that “non-immigrants” would never do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=11)