# I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600 "2009-04-01T18:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/221 "2009-04-02T23:06:15Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Bullshit. I did not say that you racist homophobe who kicks puppies. > > I don’t care WHY Americans get educated, when it is their money. However, if I am going to subsidize the education of others I would like to know how I might benefit from it. Giving a college education to someone who can not legally use it is a waste of taxpayer money. If they want to pay the out-of-state rates instead that is fine. There is no reason for the state, however, to give up cash to educate that person. That person will NOT be a more educated member of the electorate - they can not vote. That person will not be able to start their own company legally, to work their way up the corporate ladder legally, or to join the ranks of teachers to help others. > > The state subsidizes education to have a better workforce and more educated electorate. Neither of these is served by giving away education to those who can not use. Guess what - in state rates are not available to foreign students or students from other states either. > > Oh yeah - stop beating your wife asshole. The state subsidized the education of my wife you halfwit. The one she’s not “using”, never “used”, and never will “use” in your workforce sense of the term. And WHY, do you suppose, could these immigrants not “use” their education? We need them here, trust me we need them - only the anti-reality crowd is pretending like we don’t - they wouldn’t come here if we didn’t need them. And yes, for the record I DO want open borders, but I don’t want 25 anybody in my living room and I don’t even know what a freed PhD is. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/222 "2009-04-02T23:16:53Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I don’t care WHY Americans get educated, when it is their money. However, if I am going to subsidize the education of others I would like to know how I might benefit from it. Giving a college education to someone who can not legally use it is a waste of taxpayer money. If they want to pay the out-of-state rates instead that is fine. There is no reason for the state, however, to give up cash to educate that person. That person will NOT be a more educated member of the electorate - they can not vote. That person will not be able to start their own company legally, to work their way up the corporate ladder legally, or to join the ranks of teachers to help others. > > The state subsidizes education to have a better workforce and more educated electorate. Neither of these is served by giving away education to those who can not use. Guess what - in state rates are not available to foreign students or students from other states either. Regardless over whether an immigration reform ever passes that will allow these kids to legalize, some of them will eventually legalize in other ways - they will be the beneficiaries of immediate relative petitions filed by their eventual U.S. citizen spouses, for example. The purpose of restricting in-state tuition to residents of a particular state is that it is paid for by state tax revenues, which residents of that state pay out of their salaries and via sales and property tax, etc., regardless of their immigration status. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/223 "2009-04-03T02:53:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What I said is that different programs are run by different agencies. Each agency has data for it’s own program, but no one is responsible for gathering data about the cumulative affect of the various independently-run programs. > > Again, I’m talking about different programs. > > Here’s a simple example. > > Two guys walk in to the offices of Social Program A. Guy #1 is making $10,000 by working part time and $20,000 through a combination of various _other_ programs. Guy #2 is making $25,000, all from the sweat of his brow. The caseworker, in assessing eligibility and subsidy levels for Program A treats Guy #1 as having “income” of $10,000, and he is considered “poorer” and a higher priority for assistance, and Guy #2 is treated as having income of $25,000 and with lower priority and entitlement levels, though in reality Guy #1 has more money (or the equivalent) coming in than Guy #2. No, this isn’t true. Social Workers coordinate services for eligible applicants. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Rent is paid by HUD/Section 8. Utilities are paid by HEAP. > > You can look all this stuff up, if you’re interested. But have you read welfare policy? You claim children of illegal immigrants are inclined to live on welfare but don’t offer information to support the assertion. HUD’s website states that section eight has more eligible applicants than available housing. The applicants fortunate enough to get housing receive subsidized rent, not a free place to live. Welfare is an easy target for media pundits and shock jocks who earn a living propagating stereotypes and myths that prey on working class insecurities. It is amazingly effective at creating a false reality. The fact is welfare is a work program with time limits on benefits. After welfare reform in the 90s, the program was renamed Temporary Aid for Needy Families (TANF) and federal funding was provided in block grants to states. Each state determines eligibility and time limits within federal guidelines. Most states have a two year life time limit for benefits. Once the two years are used consecutively or intermittently, the family is no longer eligible. Some states offer a onetime lump cash payment to families in crisis if the family agrees to forfeit future eligibility. Welfare serves the desperately poor, people with income less than half the federal poverty line. This is destitute poor. To receive benefits, stringent work requirements must be met. No need to worry about single mothers living fat on the system. They work full time to qualify for benefits. This [site](http://www.nccp.org/tools/policy) offers a state by state comparison. Being poor in America is a hard existence. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/224 "2009-04-03T05:19:36Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > So what’s your POINT? Are you saying you’re afraid that Mexicans are going to come here and retain their heritage? I got news for you: when it comes to the American southwest, this used to BE Mexico, and when we took it from them, we made all Mexicans living here US citizens. This was quite literally their land before it was ours. It would actually make more sense for Spanish to be the dominant language here. Big fucking deal, they were in the Southwest first. In every country in the world their were populations that preceded those that inhabit it now. And populations before them. This argument is empty. > [@Cisco](#): > > And by the way, Mexicans are beneficial to us, but [here is a picture](http://www3.telus.net/Houben/images/PilgrimCouple.jpg) of some REALLY scary illegal immigrants. We’ll, you owe those people a debt of gratitude for what they created. If we didn’t have them as forbearers this country would be like…well, Mexico. Which you are free to move to, of course. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/225 "2009-04-03T05:32:28Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Someone please tell me: What, EXACTLY, do you have against educating a class of people who contribute [billions upon billions](http://www.lulac.org/advocacy/issues/immigration/truth.html) more to our system than they take out, and fill niches Americans don’t want to fill? Why are you so intent on holding them under our thumb? Feeling inadequent, or threatened somehow? 1. They take jobs Americans don’t want t the depressed wages the illegals will salivate over. Remove that factor and wages will go up. Americans might be unwilling to do a certain job for $X, but may be thrilled with doing it for $2X. And as the U.S. unemployment rate rises, the company might not even have to pay 2X. We need to remove the depression on raises and make these jobs pay what they’re actually worth, as decided by the market. If we still need people to fill jobs, we can then either increase legal immigration or institute a guest worker program. Or both. 2. I don’t want them under my thumb. I want them back in their own countries. 3. If you think that is a legitimate cite, you’re an imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/226 "2009-04-03T06:44:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Big fucking deal, they were in the Southwest first. In every country in the world their were populations that preceded those that inhabit it now. And populations before them. This argument is empty. An argument is not empty just because you say it is. You don’t even give reasons to support your opinion, just your word. Who the hell are you? > [@magellan01](#): > > We’ll, you owe those people a debt of gratitude for what they created. If we didn’t have them as forbearers this country would be like…well, Mexico. Which you are free to move to, of course. And we don’t owe Mexicans a debt of gratitude? They BUILT the southwest. Literally. Anglos didn’t know anything about living or working in this environment. They didn’t know about irrigation. They didn’t know about farming this soil or mining in these hills. They learned all that from the Mexicans. > [@magellan01](#): > > 1. They take jobs Americans don’t want t the depressed wages the illegals will salivate over. Remove that factor and wages will go up. Americans might be unwilling to do a certain job for $X, but may be thrilled with doing it for $2X. And as the U.S. unemployment rate rises, the company might not even have to pay 2X. We need to remove the depression on raises and make these jobs pay what they’re actually worth, as decided by the market. If we still need people to fill jobs, we can then either increase legal immigration or institute a guest worker program. Or both. The market did decide what those jobs were worth, and Americans don’t want them. > [@magellan01](#): > > I want them back in their own countries. Why? Why do you want to deny them opportunities that you did NOTHING to earn (assuming you were born here like I was)? > [@magellan01](#): > > 1. If you think that is a legitimate cite, you’re an imbecile. Again, who the hell are you and why should I trust your word? Give me a reason to doubt it. There are hundreds more that agree with it, I assure you. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/227 "2009-04-03T07:58:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I believe this is factually incorrect. I think you’re just thinking of business groups and Republicans as one indistinguishable group. > > This issue actually breaks across ordinary fault lines, with Republicans and labor unions generally anti-illegal and Democrats and business groups pro. That’s one reason nothing gets done about it. No, I am referring to corporations like Halliburton et al. that hire illegal immigrants and Microsoft Corporation et al. that actively recruit guest workers from developing countries. These are the same corporations funding the conservative think tanks orchestrating immigration hysteria, in fact, one of the regular contributing pundits on Lou Dobbs is from the Heritage Foundation. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The problem is that the corporations are not always able to tell who is or is not illegal, what with the proliferation of phony IDs these days. If that problem could be surmounted, it would be a lot easier. Who would know? name, accent, will work for two dollars a day… ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/228 "2009-04-03T12:51:30Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > The purpose of restricting in-state tuition to residents of a particular state is that it is paid for by state tax revenues, which residents of that state pay out of their salaries and via sales and property tax, etc., regardless of their immigration status. I recall reading that some illegals do pay income tax and file returns in the hope that doing so might help them become legal residents in the future. So I’m not sure how much the tax argument really applies when arguing against illegals. As a legal resident, I understand why people would want to bypass the legal channels into the country–it’s expensive (and fees went up a couple years ago, in some cases pretty drastically), can be difficult to navigate, takes time and the circumstances under which a person can become a legal resident are pretty narrowly defined. The US immigration system really needs an overhaul. That said, I still do not condone the people that take the illegal route. I have every bit of sympathy for them–their circumstances aren’t their fault. However, the US and every other nation has the right to define their own immigration policies, and by breaking them illegals make it harder for those people who try to enter legally. To continue an analogy from earlier in the thread, there’s a big difference between offering someone my spare bedroom to sleep in, and someone breaking into my apartment and staying there because it’s more comfortable than their own bed. > [@](#): > > The market did decide what those jobs were worth, and Americans don’t want them. Do Americans really not want them, or can they not get them because of illegals being willing to work for less and making bilingualism a more desirable skill among employees? I remember reading a complaint once from a teenager (possibly on this board) saying that s/he couldn’t find an after school job because the presence of Mexican immigrants made Spanish an almost necessary requirement for all the local jobs s/he could apply for. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/229 "2009-04-03T12:52:00Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > No, this isn’t true. Social Workers coordinate services for eligible applicants. This assertion is false. The rest of your comment was not substantive. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/230 "2009-04-03T12:57:58Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > No, I am referring to corporations like Halliburton et al. that hire illegal immigrants and Microsoft Corporation et al. that actively recruit guest workers from developing countries. These are the same corporations funding the conservative think tanks orchestrating immigration hysteria, Do you have a source for these claims? ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/231 "2009-04-03T13:31:37Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > My point is that when immigrants come to the US, in a couple of generations they often are still distinguishable from Joe Six-Pack Middle American. They don’t just dissapear into the woodwork. They don’t automatically turn into whites of northern european descent with 2.3 kids and a mini-van – or even a semblance thereof. I see, so then, in your opinion the average american is white and of northern european descent. Interesting perspective. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/232 "2009-04-03T13:51:32Z")
I don’t want to get into this argument because the whole “This is America! Speak American” bullshit makes me want to vomit. I’ve said it [before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10403903&postcount=33) and I’ll say it again: Understanding English is not something that magically happens the second you step foot in the US. It’s damn hard to learn a second language, especially as an adult. But does it really matter to people that want immigrants kept out of the country that today’s immigrants are learning English faster than the (white) immigrants of yesteryear? Of course not. They are only interested in keeping the US as white as possible. And those people who you over hear speaking Spanish – there is such a thing as bilingualism. I know it’s hard for most Americans to understand, but it’s possible to be fluent in more than one language at a time. I know, it’s totally crazy! So, there were calls for cites about how fast the newest immigrants are learning English. I don’t have good public cites beyond [Mr. Verb: Immigrants learning English](http://mr-verb.blogspot.com/2008/10/immigrants-learning-english.html). If you have access to a university library, you can read the American Speech article they reference in that link. If you don’t have access and really want to read the paper, PM me and I’ll email you the PDF. Here’s the abstract from it: > [@Wilkerson and Salmons 2008](#): > > One myth about language and immigration in North America is that > nineteenth-century immigrants typically became bilingual almost immediately af- > ter arriving, yet little systematic data has been presented for this view. We present > quantitative and qualitative evidence about Germans in Wisconsin, where, into the > twentieth century, many immigrants and their descendants remained monolingual, > decades after immigration had ceased. Even those who claimed to speak English > often had limited command. Quantitative data from the 1910 Census, augmented > by qualitative evidence from newspapers, court records, literary texts, and other > sources, suggest that Germans of various socioeconomic backgrounds often lacked > English language skills. German continued to be the primary language in numer- > ous Wisconsin communities, and some second- and third-generation descendants > of immigrants were still monolingual as adults. Understanding this history can help > inform contemporary debates about language and immigration and help dismantle > the myth that successful immigrant groups of yesterday owed their prosperity to an > immediate, voluntary shift to English. And they conclude with: > [@Wilkerson and Salmons 2008](#): > > In short, even in the most intense immigration settings, immigrants today are > learning English and abandoning their native tongues very quickly, contrary > to popular misconceptions. We have presented a range of evidence here > indicating that widespread claims about language learning among “good > old immigrants of yesteryear” prove equally false. Their ongoing monolin- > gualism does not appear to have constituted any threat to American society > or values. These conclusions, surely, should inform debates about language > and immigration in the United States and beyond. If you want to know more about language shift among immigrants in the US, then I recommend the work of [Joshua A. Fishman](http://www.joshuaafishman.com/). Or, you know, look at the Census. According to the 2007 Community Survey, in the US as a whole, among people who speak a language other than English as a home language, 91.4% speak English “very well.” That statistic goes up to 94.2% for Spanish speakers. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/233 "2009-04-03T14:02:44Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > So, there were calls for cites about how fast the newest immigrants are learning English. I don’t have good public cites beyond [Mr. Verb: Immigrants learning English](http://mr-verb.blogspot.com/2008/10/immigrants-learning-english.html). Someone else already linked to that study. It’s not a valid study because the comparison group was cherry-picked. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/234 "2009-04-03T14:08:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Someone else already linked to that study. > > It’s not a valid study because the comparison group was cherry-picked. So, you’ve read the scholarly, peer-reviewed paper and actually know something about how linguistic studies are done to make such a dismissal? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/235 "2009-04-03T14:13:20Z")
> [@Jayn\_Newell](#): > > I recall reading that some illegals do pay income tax and file returns in the hope that doing so might help them become legal residents in the future. So I’m not sure how much the tax argument really applies when arguing against illegals. Many U.S. citizens and legal residents only pay taxes because they fear jail and fines. Others don’t pay them at all, or avoid paying the full amount that they owe. Should we deny all those people government services? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/236 "2009-04-03T14:16:52Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > So, you’ve read the scholarly, peer-reviewed paper and actually know something about how linguistic studies are done to make such a dismissal? Interesting. I meant it’s not a valid study for our purposes. I don’t know how sweeping the claims of the study authors was. If these authors claimed that they can prove that today’s immigrants are learning language faster than previous waves of immigrants by comparing a broad spectrum of today’s immigrants against a cherry-picked sample of isolated rural communities from a previous generation, then their study is invalid. But it’s quite possible that the claims made by the authors is far less sweeping than that. If you’re familiar with scholarly peer-reviewed papers, as you seem to imply, you undoubtedly know that such papers often make very limited claims and are full of qualifiers and calls for further study etc. Then the media gets hold of them and publishes the more sensational parts with misleading headlines. In sum, for purposes of this discussion, that study shows nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/237 "2009-04-03T14:31:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Someone else already linked to that study. > > It’s not a valid study because the comparison group was cherry-picked. It was cited, numb nuts, to refute the post from\*\* billfish678’s\*\* belief that in the past, if you didn’t learn English immediately then you suffered. Do you expect that a study will… ahem… study _everybody_ who immigrated in the 19th century to be valid? Although it’s good to know you have problems with cherry-picked information. I’ll remember that for the future. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/238 "2009-04-03T14:34:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I meant it’s not a valid study for our purposes. I don’t know how sweeping the claims of the study authors was. > > If these authors claimed that they can prove that today’s immigrants are learning language faster than previous waves of immigrants by comparing a broad spectrum of today’s immigrants against a cherry-picked sample of isolated rural communities from a previous generation, then their study is invalid. > > But it’s quite possible that the claims made by the authors is far less sweeping than that. > > If you’re familiar with scholarly peer-reviewed papers, as you seem to imply, you undoubtedly know that such papers often make very limited claims and are full of qualifiers and calls for further study etc. Then the media gets hold of them and publishes the more sensational parts with misleading headlines. > > In sum, for purposes of this discussion, that study shows nothing. So, you haven’t read it, then. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/239 "2009-04-03T14:38:47Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > Do you expect that a study will… ahem… study _everybody_ who immigrated in the 19th century to be valid? No, but it needs to study a representative cross-section. Do you deny this as a general principle? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/240 "2009-04-03T14:59:56Z")
For this study, numb nuts, it is a representative cross-section. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=13)