# I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600 "2009-04-01T18:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/261 "2009-04-03T19:48:29Z")
Tell you what, **magellan** : come take a walk with me in the desert outside of Phoenix when it’s 115 degrees outside and hasn’t rained in over 100 days. While we’re on this walk, I want you to tell me **exactly** how you would tame this land to grow enough crops and raise enough cattle to sustain a community, with 19th century technology. You don’t have books or internet, and don’t forget, the railroad is a few days’ ride away in Tucson. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/262 "2009-04-03T19:57:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And still with your empty bullshit platitudes. Countries exist. And that is a good thing, as it allows a people to self-determine the type of society they want to live in. Countries’ borders, their sovereignty, needs to be respected. why is it that you have so little respect for laws? Who says the law is right? You don’t question laws? Slavery was legal at one time in this country. You wouldn’t have questioned that? You wouldn’t have questioned a woman’s right to vote? You wouldn’t have questioned Jim Crow? You wouldn’t have questioned prohibition? You’ve never done _anything_ illegal? Not set off any fireworks in the wrong state, or indulged in a little criminal speeding (it can be as little as 10mph over the speed limit in AZ)? I believe that we’re all born equally on this planet, it belongs to all of us, and we should be free to move around it irrespective of imaginary lines drawn on it by politicians. I believe the rights laid out in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are truly unalienable and apply to all citizens of the world who want to live by them. If someone wants to be American then step over the line, by god, and declare it. You’re now an American. Congratulations. It’s a great country and I hope you feel at home here. That’s what I believe. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/263 "2009-04-03T22:16:29Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Wooooowwwww, just wow. You know nothing, guy, NOTHING about that of which you speak. You’re a jerk who’s right because you say you’re right. You think Anglos knew how to build irrigation systems in the desert? You really believe that so strongly that to say otherwise is “Absolutely unbelievable. Definitely one of the most astoundingly stupid and ignorant things to EVER appear on these boards. Or ANY board”? PLEASE explain that before going any further. I can’t wait to hear this one. I can’t wait to hear how people who worried about how to keep their plants _dry_ magically knew how to effectively harness the precious little water in the desert to keep their crops alive. I guess god divinely imparted that wisdom on them because they are the pure, chosen people, right? Your claim was: :They didn’t know about irrigation." if you think that a true statement I feel sorry for you. You might want to check Wikipedia. Fuck, the Ancient Summerians and the the Egyptians under the pharaohs knew about irrigation. Here’s a [link](http://drake.marin.k12.ca.us/stuwork/ROCKwater/Agriculture%20and%20Irrigation/history%20page.html). Now, if you want to go and argue that the Colonists knew nothing of Egypt or [Rome](http://www.crystalinks.com/romeaqueducts.html)or [Ancient Greece](http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/AgricultureOfAncientGreece.html), be my guest. (Search for “irrigation” on each page.) Of course, we can just go to colonial [South Carolina](http://books.google.com/books?id=lsgCLQfH5UEC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=13+colonies+irrigation&source=bl&ots=OEbPYsuExR&sig=vmmAkYhQpBJ2b95XH5OCcLjm4Nw&hl=en&ei=VoHWSaDjJ5GctgO1kaCxCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA103,M1): > [@](#): > > Rice was a cash crop in South Carolina by the 1690s, and initially planters grew this drain on dry, upland soil and relied on rainfall for **irrigation**. > > \ > > Growers soon recognized the advantages of swampy, lowcountry land, and by the 1720s they had shifted the crop to these areas, where **irrigation** was far easier. > > \ > > …and not until the 1780s, it seems, was there a major shift to river marshes. Stillan incrasing proportion of rice was grown in these areas, while many estates used a mix of reservoir and **irrigation**. I certainly hope that helps you. the fact is that they were, indeed, aware of irrigation. They even used it where it was necessary—and more than one type, as circumstances dictated. The Mexican Indians in the Southwest knew how to grow some crops on land that occupied for hundreds/thousands of years? Well, good for them. You seem to want to slight Anglos for not doing it first? Newsflash: they weren’t there first! > [@Cisco](#): > > You think hispanics built nothing in the southwest? Holy shit, man. And you’re calling _me_ stupid? You’re blinded by your hate for those who aren’t like you. I do not hate Hispanics. I don’t even hate illegal Hispanics. But that doesn’t mean they should stay the fuck out of our country until they can come here legally. > [@Cisco](#): > > Why, because you say it does? You’re one cocky, hateful, presumptuous prick, you know that? Your not directly addressing what I wrote aside, it seems you think that your quote doesn’t apply to LEGAL aliens. Interesting—in an “is there any light behind those eyes?” sorta way. > [@Cisco](#): > > You don’t know shit from shinola, much less what I mean. Take the difference between what was empty land thousands of years ago and what is today “the southwestern United States.” They built that. Literally. Still do today, in fact. Go look at the guys hammering nails in roofs around here, or working on the canals, or paving roads. Hispanic. Let’s compare apples and apples. Compare the Southwest of the 1700s to the Colonies, or Europe for that matter. Any building the Mexicans did without anglos is limited to basic adobe buildings and cliff dwelling. Now google London or any major European city along with “1700” and see “images”. Show many anything similar in the Southwest. I’ll wait. Now if you’re saying that they make good manual laborers under the supervision of anglos and that that is all they’re capable of, I’ll have to disagree and point out the racism in your claim. > [@Cisco](#): > > Asshole. Yes I have one. Can I pay you a peso to wipe it for me? [QUOTE=Cisco] Tell you what, magellan: come take a walk with me in the desert outside of Phoenix when it’s 115 degrees outside and hasn’t rained in over 100 days. While we’re on this walk, I want you to tell me exactly how you would tame this land to grow enough crops and raise enough cattle to sustain a community, with 19th century technology. You don’t have books or internet, and don’t forget, the railroad is a few days’ ride away in Tucson. [/QUOTE] First I would build a proper home and install air conditioning. You see, here’s the thing, I don’t have that knowledge because I don’t need that knowledge. And thanks to some helpful anglos, we do have books and the internet. So, you’re little game is just that. But you may want to try cracking one of those things called “books” open now and then. They won’t steal your spirit or anything. Honest. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/264 "2009-04-03T22:25:19Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Who says the law is right? You don’t question laws? Slavery was legal at one time in this country. You wouldn’t have questioned that? You wouldn’t have questioned a woman’s right to vote? You wouldn’t have questioned Jim Crow? You wouldn’t have questioned prohibition? You’ve never done _anything_ illegal? Not set off any fireworks in the wrong state, or indulged in a little criminal speeding (it can be as little as 10mph over the speed limit in AZ)? It’s fine to question laws. It’s fine to try to change laws. And the citizens of the U.S. can very well choose to do that. And I’ve certainly broken the law. But I expect to pay the consequences if I get caught. But if you’re not a citizen you have no say in our laws. You can send letters, but that’s about it. > [@Cisco](#): > > I believe that we’re all born equally on this planet, it belongs to all of us, and we should be free to move around it irrespective of imaginary lines drawn on it by politicians. I believe the rights laid out in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are truly unalienable and apply to all citizens of the world who want to live by them. If someone wants to be American then step over the line, by god, and declare it. You’re now an American. Congratulations. It’s a great country and I hope you feel at home here. > > That’s what I believe. Good for you. You can also believe in the Easter Bunny. But borders serve a very good purpose. They allow people to say “this is how we’re going to live within these boundaries. We can’t control the rest of the world, but within these borders certain rules apply” You might stop to think “what if there were no borders? What if they’re were no countries? Would the U.S. even exist?” No it wouldn’t. And that would be to the detriment of the entire world. The experiment that was set up within its borders has been a boon to mankind. Even our neighbors to the south who should be stirring up there own revolution instead of sneaking in to anyplace. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/265 "2009-04-03T22:48:23Z")
Wow, more ignorant shit. What a surprise. First of all, to which place have you never been to think they’re at all comparable: South Carolina or the southwestern United States? > [@magellan01](#): > > Let’s compare apples and apples. Compare the Southwest of the 1700s to the Colonies, or Europe for that matter. Any building the Mexicans did without anglos is limited to basic adobe buildings and cliff dwelling. Now google London or any major European city along with “1700” and see “images”. Show many anything similar in the Southwest. I’ll wait. Goddamn. Again man, you’re calling _me_ stupid? Jesus Christ, dude, you’re making a fool out of yourself. “Basic” and “adobe” were used here because they worked, but you think that’s all those people could build? Is [this basic](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/San_Xavier_mission_20090204.jpg)? Could you do [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/San_Xavier_mission_20090206.jpg) on a spare weekend? Why don’t you google Tenochtitlan or Teotihuacan you ignorant prick? > [@Hernando Cortes](#): > > "This great city of Tenochtitlán is built on the salt lake, and no matter by what road you travel there are two leagues from the main body of the city to the mainland. There are four artificial causeways leading to it, and each is as wide as two cavalry lances. **The city itself is as big as Seville or Córdoba.** The main streets are very wide and very straight; some of these are on the land, but the rest and all the smaller ones are half on land, half canals where they paddle their canoes . . . There are, in all districts of this great city, many temples or houses for their idols. They are all very beautiful buildings. . . . **Amongst these temples there is one, the principal one, whose great size and magnificence no human tongue could describe** , for it is so large that within the precincts, which are surrounded by very high wall, a town of some five hundred inhabitants could easily be built. All round inside this wall there are very elegant quarters with very large rooms and corridors where their priests live. There are as many as forty towers, all of which are so high that in the case of the largest there are fifty steps leading up to the main part of it and **the most important of these towers is higher than that of the cathedral of Seville. . . ."** > [@magellan01](#): > > Your not directly addressing what I wrote aside, it seems you think that your quote doesn’t apply to LEGAL aliens. Interesting—in an “is there any light behind those eyes?” sorta way. Dude, you’re making shit up. It doesn’t say LEGAL ALIENS. It says foreigners or aliens. Tell me now, what, to you, is the difference between a LEGAL alien and a “ILLEGAL” alien? Why should we make it so hard for people to come here “legally” when we clearly need more people than we’re letting in? > [@magellan01](#): > > First I would build a proper home and install air conditioning. That’s called not having an argument. And I won’t even get into what you mean by “proper” home. Like I told someone else upthread: a messageboard discussion cannot unseat a lifetime of backwards ass thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/266 "2009-04-03T22:52:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s fine to question laws. It’s fine to try to change laws. And the citizens of the U.S. can very well choose to do that. And I’ve certainly broken the law. But I expect to pay the consequences if I get caught. But if you’re not a citizen you have no say in our laws. You can send letters, but that’s about it. So your belief is: I can flaunt our laws. I can do things that are against the law, but THOSE people, born on the OTHER side of that imaginary line - fuck them. > [@magellan01](#): > > Good for you. You can also believe in the Easter Bunny. But borders serve a very good purpose. They allow people to say “this is how we’re going to live within these boundaries. We can’t control the rest of the world, but within these borders certain rules apply” You might stop to think “what if there were no borders? What if they’re were no countries? Would the U.S. even exist?” No it wouldn’t. And that would be to the detriment of the entire world. The experiment that was set up within its borders has been a boon to mankind. Even our neighbors to the south who should be stirring up there own revolution instead of sneaking in to anyplace. Fallacy. You think the US would cease to exist if we let anyone in? Bullshit. Our laws would still apply. Our laws would end at our borders and the next country’s laws would begin, and people would be free to choose under which laws they want to live. What’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/267 "2009-04-03T22:52:36Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Why should we make it so hard for people to come here “legally” when we clearly need more people than we’re letting in? We clearly don’t ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/268 "2009-04-03T23:08:34Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > We clearly don’t Why, because you say so? Tell me, who is keeping us in positive population growth? [Who is keeping social security afloat?](http://askville.amazon.com/undocumented-workers-pay-Social-Security-taxes-receive-benefits/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=7532472) _Why are they coming here if we don’t need them?_ When the latter waves of migrant workers got to California from the dustbowl in the 1930s, and they weren’t needed, they were turned away. If we don’t need immigrants, why are they finding work? [More](http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0412-29.htm) [cites](http://dreamacttexas.blogspot.com/2008/01/undocumented-immigrants-do-pay-taxes.html) [that](http://www.aclusandiego.org/issues_item.php?cat_id_sel=001&sub_cat_sel=000005&article_id=000025) [undocumented](http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2007/01/tax_help_expand.php) [workers](http://www.reason.org/news/show/122411.html) pay more into our system than they take out of it, since **magellan** called me an imbecile and said my brain was turned off if I trusted the last cite I posted. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/269 "2009-04-03T23:19:18Z")
deleted. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/270 "2009-04-03T23:24:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Rent is paid by HUD/Section 8. Utilities are paid by HEAP. Aid from HEAP is a one-time benefit. See the below link (which is a PDF). > **[Revised%20App.pdf](https://development.ohio.gov/cms/uploadedfiles/CDD/OCS/Revised%20App.pdf)** > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Two guys walk in to the offices of Social Program A. Guy #1 is making $10,000 by working part time and $20,000 through a combination of various _other_ programs. Guy #2 is making $25,000, all from the sweat of his brow. The caseworker, in assessing eligibility and subsidy levels for Program A treats Guy #1 as having “income” of $10,000, and he is considered “poorer” and a higher priority for assistance, and Guy #2 is treated as having income of $25,000 and with lower priority and entitlement levels, though in reality Guy #1 has more money (or the equivalent) coming in than Guy #2. Also, any person being considered for assistance on the city, state or federal level has all “income” or resources taken into consideration, to the extent he/she tells the truth about it. The $10,000/food stamps/rental assistance are all taken into account. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/271 "2009-04-03T23:34:27Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > First of all, to which place have you never been to think they’re at all comparable: South Carolina or the southwestern United States? You write a sentence that Is in indecipherable, and I’m ignorant? Please rephrase. > [@Cisco](#): > > Goddamn. Again man, you’re calling _me_ stupid? Jesus Christ, dude, you’re making a fool out of yourself. “Basic” and “adobe” were used here because they worked, but you think that’s all those people could build? Is [this basic](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/San_Xavier_mission_20090204.jpg)? Could you do [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/San_Xavier_mission_20090206.jpg) on a spare weekend? Why don’t you google Tenochtitlan or Teotihuacan you ignorant prick? Ay yay yay. YOU are the one who made a big deal about what they BUILT. I pointed out what it was they actually built. Adobe is fine, but that was the limit of their building. As I said, pick a year, like 1700, and look to Europe and then look to the Southwest. And you tell me who could teach the other about building. And do you really want to bring churches into this? [Do you?](http://www.greatbuildings.com/types/types/cathedral.html) Not to mention that San Xavier was probably built by Europeans, given the Moorish and Byzantine design elements. > [@Cisco](#): > > Dude, you’re making shit up. It doesn’t say LEGAL ALIENS. It says foreigners or aliens. Tell me now, what, to you, is the difference between a LEGAL alien and a “ILLEGAL” alien? Why should we make it so hard for people to come here “legally” when we clearly need more people than we’re letting in? No, I’m not making anything up. Can you at least _try_ to pay attention. Your comment went to what I had said. And I DID say: LEGAL aliens. You know, the good kind. And it is not clear at all that we need more people. If we did, I’d be all for, as I’ve said repeatedly, changing our immigration policy to allow more people in, more easily and starting a temporary worker program. You know, LEGAL means by which people can come here. But you don’t care about that. You just want people to wander about willy-nilly. You have some 9th grade notion about "peoples of the world living together in harmony. I assume you leave your front door wide open, right? And how about ownership? Is that too cruel and unfair notion for your soft, sophmoric mind, too? Is it okay to own land even? > [@Cisco](#): > > That’s called not having an argument. And I won’t even get into what you mean by “proper” home. Like I told someone else upthread: a messageboard discussion cannot unseat a lifetime of backwards ass thinking. I underestimated your inability to think. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/272 "2009-04-03T23:51:24Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > So your belief is: I can flaunt our laws. I can do things that are against the law, but THOSE people, born on the OTHER side of that imaginary line - fuck them. Man, your dense. I’m a citizen and am bound to adhere to laws. If I don’t I suffer the penalty. I’m completely fine with that. But you want people to 1) break our law by sneaking in here and then 2) not have to pay for their illegal behavior. Which, by the way, should be immediate deportation. Period. The border should be completely sealed. And I think the word you want is “flout”, not “flaunt”. Don’t mention it. > [@Cisco](#): > > Fallacy. You think the US would cease to exist if we let anyone in? Bullshit. Our laws would still apply. Our laws would end at our borders and the next country’s laws would begin, and people would be free to choose under which laws they want to live. What’s wrong with that? What’s wrong with that is that a country has a right to decide it’s immigration laws—even the idea you propose. But it is up to the host country. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that is truly baffling. Now, as far as your idea, there was a time when that might have made sense, a time when countries were trying to attract people—any people. That’s not the case now, not for the U.S. So we should set our laws in a way that best serve us. If we need more people, lets invite more in. If more people would be a burden, we have the right to reduce immigration levels. But whether we tighten the spigot to let in 1,000 a year or 10,000,000 is our decision. But regardless of what the number is, we need to know who these people are. We need to check them for infectious diseases, as was done at Ellis Island. We need to make sure that these people are not people who wish to do Americans harm. But under no circumstances, in today’s world, doesn’t it make sense for the U.S. to let people in willy-nilly. Do you really think it wise for a country like the U.S. to have an open border? Do you really think we should let anyone who wants to come here in? Tell me, how many people do you think that would be? And at what point would it degrade our quality of life? Or do you think that would be an okay consequence? So, what’s the number? A million? Ten million? A hundred million? three hundred million? A billion? Two. You do realize that there are that many people who probably love to come here, right? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/273 "2009-04-03T23:59:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You write a sentence that Is in indecipherable, and I’m ignorant? Please rephrase. Not my fault you can’t parse a correct sentence. Read it again. > [@magellan01](#): > > Ay yay yay. YOU are the one who made a big deal about what they BUILT. I pointed out what it was they actually built. Adobe is fine, but that was the limit of their building. As I said, pick a year, like 1700, and look to Europe and then look to the Southwest. And you tell me who could teach the other about building. And do you really want to bring churches into this? [Do you?](http://www.greatbuildings.com/types/types/cathedral.html) Not to mention that San Xavier was probably built by Europeans, given the Moorish and Byzantine design elements. Are you incapable of grasping that building, working, and living in different environs with different materials requires different methods? You think the reasons you don’t see houses like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Wallace_Stevens_House_-_Hartford,_CT.jpg/800px-Wallace_Stevens_House_-_Hartford,_CT.jpg) in the southwest are purely aesthetic? > [@magellan01](#): > > No, I’m not making anything up. Can you at least _try_ to pay attention. Your comment went to what I had said. And I DID say: LEGAL aliens. You know, the good kind. You said the bible quote only applies to “legal” aliens. You made that up. > [@magellan01](#): > > And it is not clear at all that we need more people. If we did, I’d be all for, as I’ve said repeatedly, changing our immigration policy to allow more people in, more easily and starting a temporary worker program. You know, LEGAL means by which people can come here. It is clear, you just don’t want to hear it. > [@magellan01](#): > > But you don’t care about that. You just want people to wander about willy-nilly. You have some 9th grade notion about "peoples of the world living together in harmony. I assume you leave your front door wide open, right? And how about ownership? Is that too cruel and unfair notion for your soft, sophmoric mind, too? Is it okay to own land even? Don’t tell me what I want. I told you what I want and for some reason that scares you. Small cock, probably. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/274 "2009-04-04T00:01:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And I think the word you want is “flout”, not “flaunt”. Don’t mention it. Hey dipshit: number one, you’re wrong. I used flaunt correctly. Number two, if you want to talk grammar, we’ll be here all day just to get you using you’re and your correctly. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/275 "2009-04-04T00:04:30Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Why, because you say so? Tell me, who is keeping us in positive population growth? [Who is keeping social security afloat?](http://askville.amazon.com/undocumented-workers-pay-Social-Security-taxes-receive-benefits/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=7532472) _Why are they coming here if we don’t need them?_ When the latter waves of migrant workers got to California from the dustbowl in the 1930s, and they weren’t needed, they were turned away. If we don’t need immigrants, why are they finding work? > > [More](http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0412-29.htm) [cites](http://dreamacttexas.blogspot.com/2008/01/undocumented-immigrants-do-pay-taxes.html) [that](http://www.aclusandiego.org/issues_item.php?cat_id_sel=001&sub_cat_sel=000005&article_id=000025) [undocumented](http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2007/01/tax_help_expand.php) [workers](http://www.reason.org/news/show/122411.html) pay more into our system than they take out of it, since **magellan** called me an imbecile and said my brain was turned off if I trusted the last cite I posted. They come here, not because we need them, but because they have a chance at a better life, even if it’s against the law. They find work because they’re willing to work at a lower wage, and at more dangerous jobs, than US citizens and legal immigrants. THEY DON’T COME HERE TO TRY TO FIND WORK BECAUSE THEY WANT TO MAKE THE US A BETTER PLACE. They come here for their own personal reasons, not any altruistic ones, other than the altruism of making their families’ llives better financially. And shall we talk about remittances? That’s a lot of money draining out of the US, without noticeably benefiting the US. You might think that positive population growth, in the US or in other countries, is a great thing. I don’t, necessarily. I really don’t think that we need more people who have low skill levels. We can grow our own low skill level population right here. Desirable immigrants, you know, the ones that we DO need, will have great skills and the ability to learn more skills as needed. The US really doesn’t need any more day laborers, we have enough, some homegrown, and some imported. I know that in my area of the country, we’re having hospital ER problems because too many people are using the ER as their primary health care facilities. Some of these people are either US citizens or legal residents. However, a sizeable percentage are illegal immigrants, who use the ER because they don’t have health insurance, or are afraid to go to a regular doctor for fear of ICE, or a combination of reasons. It doesn’t matter what the reason is, or whether the patient is a legal resident or not, using the ER as a regular source of health care costs a great deal more than using a regular doctor or clinic. We have problems with schools, too. Nowadays, schools must offer many more ESL classes, and must have a large percentage of bilingual (English and Spanish) teachers. Now, my dad grew up speaking Italian with a little English mixed in when he was a young boy, and when he got to school, he had to learn to speak only English. I am sympathetic to kids who need to learn another language to go to school. However, the fact of the matter is that the schools have to have more money in order to offer bilingual lessons. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/276 "2009-04-04T00:07:25Z")
Oh, and don’t expect Bible quotes to sway me. I’m an atheist, and do not look to the Bible, any Bible or holy book, to guide my opinions or how I live. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/277 "2009-04-04T00:25:51Z")
Oh, trust me, Lynn, I don’t expect much to sway you. Your mind is clearly made up on the topic. Facts won’t sway you, compassion won’t sway you, philosophy and reason won’t sway you. Why would anything? I mean, the arrogant pricks have to gall to try to make a better life for theirselves and their families, and add insult to injury by contributing more money to our system than they take out! The nerve! Only us born 'Mericans who worked _hard_ to get here should enjoy the fruits of our labors! I’m an atheist too, by the way, but I’m not universally opposed to seeing wisdom in a book that has endured for thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/278 "2009-04-04T00:49:02Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Hey dipshit: number one, you’re wrong. I used flaunt correctly. Number two, if you want to talk grammar, we’ll be here all day just to get you using you’re and your correctly. Idiot. I think you have some valid arguments in this thread, but the word is “flout.” A) Flout: v.tr. To show contempt for; scorn: flout a law; behavior that flouted convention. See Usage Note at flaunt. v.intr. To be scornful. n. A contemptuous action or remark; an insult. B) Flaunt as a transitive verb means “to exhibit ostentatiously”: She flaunted her wealth. To flout is “to show contempt for”: She flouted the proprieties. For some time now flaunt has been used in the sense “to show contempt for,” even by educated users of English. This usage is still widely seen as erroneous and is best avoided. [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flout](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flout) [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flaunt](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flaunt) ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/279 "2009-04-04T01:12:20Z")
Oh, actually I sympathize with the IIs. I’d probably do the same thing, in their place. However, I am looking out for MY self-interest as I see it. It’s like I’m in a lifeboat, with forty five other people. There are scores of people adrift on the ocean, in other lifeboats which are overloaded and undersupplied. The other forty five people and I decide that our lifeboat can handle a few more people. However, if we try to allow EVERYONE who is adrift on the sea into our lifeboat, it will sink. It simply can’t carry that many. And we don’t have the resources to support everyone. I say, my lifeboat belongs to my shipmates and me. I will give my input as to who we pick and choose to allow into this lifeboat. I won’t take just anyone, no matter how pitiful their story is. And, if at all possible, I will vote to take on only those people who would improve the situation in my particular lifeboat. I will vote to take on people who have skills that my particular lifeboat needs. I do this knowing full well that if I were on an overpopulated, undersupplied lifeboat that I would be trying for a slot on that roomy, well-supplied lifeboat. Life ain’t fair. And I don’t think that what much of what you state as “facts” are actually facts. I don’t think that we really need a lot more unskilled laborers in this country. Hell, we’re OUTSOURCING a lot of jobs that used to be done by low skilled workers. I think that you are cherrypicking facts about the financial contributions of illegals in this country, without looking at the full picture of how much they cost. I don’t think that you and I have the same goals. And I read many articles about this issue, some factual, some emotional, and most a mixture. I discuss the issue with many people, people who have different views on it. Interestingly, some of these people are illegals. Their consensus is that they’re breaking the law, and it’s bad for society, but (and pay attention to this part) being an illegal immigrant in the US gives them, personally, a better lifestyle. They are looking out for their own self-interest, just as I am looking out for mine. If our roles were reversed, I strongly suspect that many of them would be incensed at me as an II coming to their country, lowering the standard of living and driving up health and education costs. As for using the Bible for a guide for living, let’s not forget that this is the same Bible that sets up rules for slavery, for a rapist to marry his victim or pay a monetary price, etc. I think that using the Bible for a living guide has to be done carefully. I will not simply accept it, unless I examine the context of the passage. For instance, is the alien a trespasser, a criminal? I think that’s a good question to ask when considering whether a Biblical passage applies. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/280 "2009-04-04T01:49:08Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Not my fault you can’t parse a correct sentence. Read it again. > Are you incapable of grasping that building, working, and living in different environs with different materials requires different methods? You think the reasons you don’t see houses like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Wallace_Stevens_House_-_Hartford,_CT.jpg/800px-Wallace_Stevens_House_-_Hartford,_CT.jpg) in the southwest are purely aesthetic? > You said the bible quote only applies to “legal” aliens. You made that up. > It is clear, you just don’t want to hear it. > Don’t tell me what I want. I told you what I want and for some reason that scares you. Small cock, probably. Look, son, you’re far more guilty of refusing to be swayed than me, **Lynn** , or anyone else in this thread. When direct questions of substance have been asked of you, you ignore them. All you can do is serve up more scoops of platitude and pablum. As far as what you claim I “made up”, I ADMIT to making it up, nitwit. Why, because it was an OPINION I offered on the quote you coughed up. I freely admit I made up my opinion.:smack: You keep trying to imply I was saying that my words were part of the quote. Try not to be so dumbfuck stupid. You coughed up the quote, then I opined on it: that it applied beautifully to LEGAL aliens. And it does, you idiot. You think it applies to illegal aliens as well, right? THAT is the difference. Try to follow along and stop FLAUNTING your slowness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=15)