# I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600 "2009-04-01T18:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/301 "2009-04-05T14:57:01Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Seriously, who gives a flying fuck? Flaunt, the way I used it, is widely entrenched in common use, and in the dictionary. You’re saying I’m wrong because some grammar dorks recommend against it. Ok. Whatever you say, big guy. Hope it puts a smile on your face. It’s off-topic.. Ha! Here’s the thing: I just made a a small correction when you used a word in an odd way—which you did. That might have been the end of it, but, no you had to defend it. And when you did you misrepresented its correctness, implying that it was just about as correct as “flout” and not sharing any usage notes. When I then pointed out to you that of the multiple sources on [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com), only two even include the definition, and that both of those include usage notes pointing out that it is probably a mistake that had gained acceptance at one time, and that using it the way you did should be avoided, your choice is to come back yet again with bullshit—namely, that it is “widely entrenched in common use”. Never mind that both notes advise _against_ using it the way you did. And you were worried about ME attacking your character!!! As I (and 5-4-Fighting) guessed, your actions would do an adequate job of revealing your character on their own by championing stubborn idiocy. Well done! But that’s off-topic, right? It is for _what_ is being debated, but it reveals the type of debater you are. So, the exchange is helpful. But if you don’t want to discuss that, I suggest stop trying to defend what really isn’t worthy of being defended and…drumroll…answer the questions that have been asked of you. You know the stuff that is ON topic. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/302 "2009-04-05T15:39:33Z")
One missing point in the crazy- The point of in-state tuition is not to reward and punish people for where they live. It’s not about justice or truth or anything. It’s a wholly practical system. In-state tuition is an attempt to resolve public universities’ two conflicting goals: [ol] [li]Create more educated people who will be better prepared to contribute to your state’s economy. [/li][li]Make money.[/li][/ol] The idea is that you want as many people from your state as possible going to your school since their education will ultimately make your state richer. And you don’t want to waste your resources on people are just going to go back to their home state (though you will accept their money as long as they make it worth it to you.) Immigrants and the children of immigrants are likely to stay in the place they spent so much trouble getting to. It makes your state richer in the long run to give them access to the tools they need to contribute to your economy. We all win from a more educated populace. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/303 "2009-04-05T16:18:14Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I should have specified that I was referring to _any/worst case_ criminals, or _any/worst case_ infectious diseases, but you seem to have got my meaning. > > If you agree that we should stop child-rapists and people with hemorrhaging ebola sores entering the country, how can we do this without preventing uninspected entry? Well, child-raping is already illegal in America. How can we stop it without inspecting everyone’s home? > [@magellan01](#): > > Ha! Here’s the thing: I just made a a small correction when you used a word in an odd way—which you did. That might have been the end of it, but, no you had to defend it. And when you did you misrepresented its correctness, implying that it was just about as correct as “flout” and not sharing any usage notes. When I then pointed out to you that of the multiple sources on [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com), only two even include the definition, and that both of those include usage notes pointing out that it is probably a mistake that had gained acceptance at one time, and that using it the way you did should be avoided, your choice is to come back yet again with bullshit—namely, that it is “widely entrenched in common use”. Never mind that both notes advise _against_ using it the way you did. And you were worried about ME attacking your character!!! As I (and 5-4-Fighting) guessed, your actions would do an adequate job of revealing your character on their own by championing stubborn idiocy. Well done! Dude, you’re obsessed. Let it go. > [@magellan01](#): > > I suggest stop trying to defend what really isn’t worthy of being defended and…drumroll…answer the questions that have been asked of you. You know the stuff that is ON topic. Ask me honest, relevant questions and I’ll be glad to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/304 "2009-04-05T16:48:20Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > One missing point in the crazy- > > The point of in-state tuition is not to reward and punish people for where they live. It’s not about justice or truth or anything. It’s a wholly practical system. In-state tuition is an attempt to resolve public universities’ two conflicting goals: > > [ol] > [li]Create more educated people who will be better prepared to contribute to your state’s economy. [/li][li]Make money.[/li][/ol] > > The idea is that you want as many people from your state as possible going to your school since their education will ultimately make your state richer. And you don’t want to waste your resources on people are just going to go back to their home state (though you will accept their money as long as they make it worth it to you.) > > Immigrants and the children of immigrants are likely to stay in the place they spent so much trouble getting to. It makes your state richer in the long run to give them access to the tools they need to contribute to your economy. We all win from a more educated populace. One of the problems with this is that the illegal immigrants (whether they came here as adults or children) won’t be able to use the education in a legal job. They will simply be taking up a subsidized slot that a citizen/legal resident could use to get an education and a legal job. Another problem is that whether or not the subsidy is intended to reward a behavior, in practice, it DOES reward whatever behavior leads to getting that subsidy. So both of your arguments here fail. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/305 "2009-04-05T16:52:46Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > both of your arguments here fail. . . . but your ramblings about hippies and communism and people NOT working towards red-blooded Mericans’ best interests made perfect sense :rolleyes:. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/306 "2009-04-05T16:58:04Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > One missing point in the crazy- > > The point of in-state tuition is not to reward and punish people for where they live. It’s not about justice or truth or anything. It’s a wholly practical system. In-state tuition is an attempt to resolve public universities’ two conflicting goals: > > [ol] > [li]Create more educated people who will be better prepared to contribute to your state’s economy. [/li][li]Make money.[/li][/ol] > > The idea is that you want as many people from your state as possible going to your school since their education will ultimately make your state richer. And you don’t want to waste your resources on people are just going to go back to their home state (though you will accept their money as long as they make it worth it to you.) > > Immigrants and the children of immigrants are likely to stay in the place they spent so much trouble getting to. It makes your state richer in the long run to give them access to the tools they need to contribute to your economy. We all win from a more educated populace. Let’s assume that all this is correct. That would than explain why states offer its residents a special deal. But it doesn’t explain why the taxpayers’ money should go to those who are here illegally. Let’s say their is $X in revenues allocated to subsidize in-state tuition, why shouldn’t all of that go to in-state residents who are legal? Why should money be taken from them, giving each one less of a subsidy, and given to people who shouldn’t even be here? Additionally, people who are here illegally are supposed to be deported. Why should people pay to educate them when they might be sent back to their home country tomorrow or the next day? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/307 "2009-04-05T17:17:42Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Well, child-raping is already illegal in America. How can we stop it without inspecting everyone’s home? :rolleyes: The fact that you offer this as an analogy means that any further explanation will be a waste of hamster power. Unbelievable. Of course, if you disagree, go right ahead and champion this idiocy, as well. > [@Cisco](#): > > Dude, you’re obsessed. Let it go. No problem. This part of the discussion has already served its purpose. But if you’d like to argue why you’re right about being wrong more vociferously, go right ahead. It’s quite entertaining. And enlightening as to that character of yours you seem so afraid to have revealed. > [@Cisco](#): > > Ask me honest, relevant questions and I’ll be glad to answer. You know, not only is your thinking sophmoric, you’re full of shit. You say “ask”, but then when questions are posed to you, you ignore them. Even when another poster indicated that she’d be interested to hear your answers, as well. In a discussion, the questions that would be of value to have answered is determined by the person _asking_ them, nitwit, not the person who it is incumbent upon to answer them. People are putting forth effort to understand your position. Questions have been posed to you to aid in that. So answer them. Until you do, you leave people to conclude, as I surmised, that you haven’t thought through your position beyond the way an eighth grader would. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/308 "2009-04-05T17:19:28Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > . . . but your ramblings about hippies and communism and people NOT working towards red-blooded Mericans’ best interests made perfect sense :rolleyes:. Actually, it did. The fact that the “sense” in it might have escaped you is unsurprising in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/309 "2009-04-05T17:36:31Z")
:rolleyes: You’re such a dickhole, magellan. But just to prove that I’m not who you think I am, and hopefully illustrate to those with a brain that you’re what you claim to hate (sophmoric, idiotic, waste of hamster power, etc.), I’ll answer your stupid, specious questions. NUMBER ONE: Do you leave your front door open? Yes. Have never locked up the houses I’ve lived in. There’s a great breeze this time of year. NUMBER TWO: What are your views on ownership, particularly of land? I own land. I don’t want people tampering with it, obviously, but I’m not going to shoot someone who walks across it. I hope that gives you the cosmic insight into why I don’t hate Mexicans that you were looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/310 "2009-04-06T01:15:07Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > . . . but your ramblings about hippies and communism and people NOT working towards red-blooded Mericans’ best interests made perfect sense :rolleyes:. I was giving a history lesson. Let me repeat myself, using different words, since you didn’t understand me. Communism has been tried, many times, by many different groups. It will work in SMALL groups, of like-minded people. It will work with a household of people, up to a small community. “Small”, in this case, is a couple of dozen adults. Even then, as the upper limit is reached, the system starts falling apart. I grew up watching people form communes, and watching those communes come crashing down. These communes had as their philosphy that everyone was welcome, everyone could take whatever they wanted, and give back what they could. They were small scale versions of what you’re advocating. For a commune to work, it has to put limits on its growth (even if it wants to take over the nation, it has to look at how many people it can support RIGHT NOW) and limits on behavior.\* A nation has to do the same thing. We cannot take in an infinite number of immigrants, and especially not all at once. We have to determine who we let in, and in what numbers. You list your location as Arizona. Right now, your state is having problems finding enough water for its growing population. Other regions will have other scarce resources. Any geographical area will be able to sustain only a given number of people before its population has to go thirsty or hungry or poor. \*See _The Greening of America_ and other books like it. Even the most fervent advocates of the system had to acknowledge that there wasn’t room for everyone in a particular community, and that a community had to set limits on how many people could stay in one tribe. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/311 "2009-04-06T01:40:55Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I hope that gives you the cosmic insight into why I don’t hate Mexicans that you were looking for. Being against illegal immigrants getting special advantages like in-state tuition = hating Mexicans? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/312 "2009-04-06T13:33:43Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > Aid from HEAP is a one-time benefit. See the below link (which is a PDF). > > [Development](http://www.development.ohio.gov/cms/uploadedfiles/CDD/OCS/Revised%20App.pdf) I believe you’ve misunderstood your source. When it says it’s a one time benefit it doesn’t mean that you can get it for one time in the course of a lifetime. It means that each season you file one application and get one payment amount. Next year you apply again. All they’re saying is that it’s not like a lot of other programs where you apply once and get a monthly benefit thereafter. > [@](#): > > Also, any person being considered for assistance on the city, state or federal level has all “income” or resources taken into consideration, to the extent he/she tells the truth about it. The $10,000/food stamps/rental assistance are all taken into account. This is completely untrue. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/313 "2009-04-06T19:35:33Z")
I wish you’d tell both of these things (or your friends anecdotes) to the entities through which I just participated in these things. Also, the average payment by HEAP in New York City is around $50 – somebody is sure gonna buy a lotta cadillacs and filets mignon with that. Do you have _any_ cites for what you claim you’ve heard? It even says right in my cite that public assistance is considered. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/314 "2009-04-06T20:24:34Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > I wish you’d tell both of these things (or your friends anecdotes) to the entities through which I just participated in these things. Also, the average payment by HEAP in New York City is around $50 – This does not appear to be correct. See [here](http://www.nationalgridus.com/niagaramohawk/non_html/payops_heap_eligibility.pdf) - it would appear that the $50 is if heat is included in your rent - if you actually pay it, it’s $120 - $540. > [@](#): > > somebody is sure gonna buy a lotta cadillacs and filets mignon with that. Cheap shot - at the outset I wrote > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I should make clear that with all that, no one is going to become rich by (legally) living off government handouts. But you can live fairly decently, and if you are used to that lifestyle the marginal benefit of working for a living is often not enough to overcome the natural laziness that afflicts us all. > [@](#): > > Do you have _any_ cites for what you claim you’ve heard? It even says right in my cite that public assistance is considered. I looked around a bit, and it seems like it varies. From the [HUD Guidelines](http://www.hud.gov/offices/adm/hudclips/guidebooks/7420.10G/7420g05GUID.pdf) it would seem that some forms of social programs are counted and some are not - see Exhibit 5-2 (begins on page 15 of the PDF file). [Here’s](http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/Reports/Simulation/part-i-v.htm) a discussion of Medicaid income eligiblity from the Department of HHS, which discusses the variability of standards, including the following: > [@](#): > > States have some discretion over the types of income they may or may not count when determining eligibility for Medicaid and SCHIP. […] Other types of income that were mentioned as not counted are: supplemental food assistance payments, WIC and food stamp benefits, sibling income, welfare benefit payments, certain types of veteran benefits, and rent received from a roomer or boarder. It is important to note that a state may use gross income tests for its Medicaid and SCHIP programs, but then not count several types of income such as welfare and disability benefits. Massachusetts is an example of such a state. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/315 "2009-04-07T15:15:42Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > I see, so then, in your opinion the average american is white and of northern european descent. Interesting perspective. No, you’re wrong, that’s not my opinion. This thread has contained discussion on when immigrants “assimilate” into “American culture” or are “indistinguishable” from “Americans” (paraphrasing). Unless we, or you **lalenin** , are willing to agree on what constitutes “an American” or “American culture” then any discussion on how fast immigrants become “indistinguishable” is impossible. So to start moving in that direction… **lalenin** , what is your definition of “the average American”? C’mon, have the courage to state something you actually believe in. What is your definition of “the average American”? Then we can have the discussion about immigrants assimilating into it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/316 "2009-04-07T15:18:09Z")
And **Cisco** , I never before realized what a complete loon you are. Your wacknacity is… stupefying. Really. Utterly amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/317 "2009-04-07T15:52:17Z")
Yeah, loving your fellow man, resenting unnatural borders and elitism by birth - fuckin’ WHACK, man! Completely _loony!_ Absotively stuperating _whackanackalicious!_ :rolleyes: All I’m doing is having the balls to openly state and defend ideas that will be commonplace in a few years, and trust me I’m not the only one around here who thinks like this. I’m just not afraid of what assholes like you have to say about it. You, among others in this thread, appear terrified of original thought, and perfectly content to only ask leading questions and attack other peoples’ positions. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/318 "2009-04-07T16:22:08Z")
**Cisco** , you’re wrong on so many levels, and I’m confident the rational people around here can see them all by themselves. And like the saying goes, I’m not going to bother arguing with you because then all I’ll accomplish is winning an argument against… a blathering idiot. But trust me, you’re nuts. I suspect your delusion prevents you from understanding that, so I hold compassion rather than dislike for you, but you’re still gone. Solid gone. You’ve executed a flawless triple lindy into the deep end. You’ve orbited Saturn and are heading for Uranus. You sued Ann’s House of Nuts for trademark infringement and won. Now go take your lithium. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/319 "2009-04-07T16:28:56Z")
Yeah, whatever you say, Freud. See, I’m convinced that any rational people can see all by themselves that _I’m_ right and _you’re_ nuts, so maybe the objective truth is that it’s a complex issue whose resolution depends on opinion, attitude, and zeitgeist. Probably too mature a thought for Jimmy Joe Poopypants to consider, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/320 "2009-04-07T16:37:03Z")
I feel like I’m in a battle of wits against a Sicilian (even though death isn’t on the line). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=17)