# I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600 "2009-04-01T18:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/21 "2009-04-01T19:11:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s no “the country”. Hispanics tend to want them here, and they have a lot of otherwise-uncommited voters in key states. And a lot of business people want them here as well, so they can save Big Bucks on the backs of other people. Right, but your point about there being no “the country” is, in this context, precisely irrelevant. Every decision we take, as “the country” (i.e., as actual US policy) is the product of debate, negotiation, and concession between different factions and interest groups. There is probably not a single national policy enacted by the US government that has the support of every US citizen. Representative democracies work precisely by balancing different opinions and formulating policies based on this balance, and on elections that demonstrate levels of public support for particular people and/or policies. You are probably right that current US immigration policy reflects the priorities of some specific groups, but that doesn’t make it any less accurate to talk about “the country” when discussing US immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/22 "2009-04-01T19:16:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I actually have a lot of sympathy for the parents, let alone the kids. Quite frankly, if I was living in dirt poverty in Mexico and could make a better life by sneaking across the border I might well do it myself. > > But sympathy doesn’t translate into forcibly taking money from other people and giving it to them. > > Or even to allowing unlimited immigration. Fact is that there’s a limited amount of resources in this country (or any country). It’s nice to share some, but not to share an unlimited amount of it. I share your sympathy as well. Frankly I think some of the hate rhetoric comes from people that deep inside realize that if they were in the same situation they would be too afraid to risk so much for their loved ones. Agree or disagree, I don’t care, what I really came in to say is that illegal immigrants give as much as they take. Why do you think we pay such a low price for many goods and services? It’s not because we’re paying them a fare wage, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/23 "2009-04-01T19:16:40Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > What it also does is argue that there aren’t enough “legal” slots to satisfy all the people who actually want to come here. That’s a whole different argument. No, it’s a distinction without a difference. If we make a policy whereby the only requirement for immigration is turning up at a border checkpoint with a red suitcase, but then put a limit of 10 people per year who can immigrate using the Red Suitcase Clause, it’s effectively the same, for everyone except the first 10 people, as having no immigration avenues at all. From the point of view of the immigrant himself, especially a poor immigrant, “no legal means of immigration” and “not enough slots for immigration” are effectively the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/24 "2009-04-01T19:19:20Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Right, but your point about there being no “the country” is, in this context, precisely irrelevant. Au contraire. It’s exactly relevant in this precise context. **Captain Amazing** is advocating a position that since these people are here illegally they should not be rewarded by receiving benefits. **DigitalC** responded that the country wants them here. That is only a valid response if it meant that the majority of the country wanted them here, in which case there is some implication that it benefits the most people. If that’s not true, then it just means that the political process is such that in this case narrow interests have triumphed over the passive majority. Of course, that’s the way the political process works. That doesn’t make it right and doesn’t mean that people can’t advocate against such policies. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/25 "2009-04-01T19:22:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As a practical matter, the vast majority of these people could not legally immigrate, for whatever reason. You know, that’s a reasonable, rational, valid way of putting it. Touché. Hmmm… I’m going to have to mentally chew on that a while. First stab at a response… 1. “I want to do something.” 2. “What I want to do is illegal.” 3. “Therefore, I have no choice but to do it illegally.” No, there is another choice. Don’t do it. I realize that most illegal immigrants come here looking for a better life \*for themselves \*(and possibly for their families). I am sympathetic to that. Given the circumstances many of them are coming from, I feel downright sorry for them. That being said, I think the U.S. can’t be, shouldn’t be, the welfare state of choice for those who want a better life than what their own home country has to offer them. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/26 "2009-04-01T19:25:57Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > From the point of view of the immigrant himself, especially a poor immigrant, “no legal means of immigration” and “not enough slots for immigration” are effectively the same thing. Touché. Kind of like it was legal to sell marijuana, but only if you had a tax stamp. And they didn’t issue the tax stamps. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/27 "2009-04-01T19:33:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Au contraire. It’s exactly relevant in this precise context. > > **Captain Amazing** is advocating a position that since these people are here illegally they should not be rewarded by receiving benefits. **DigitalC** responded that the country wants them here. That is only a valid response if it meant that the majority of the country wanted them here, in which case there is some implication that it benefits the most people. If that’s not true, then it just means that the political process is such that in this case narrow interests have triumphed over the passive majority. > > Of course, that’s the way the political process works. That doesn’t make it right and doesn’t mean that people can’t advocate against such policies. But “the country,” in the form of current policies and practices, has made quite clear that getting rid of them isn’t important enough to actually do anything about it. Narrow interests generally have most success in setting policy agendas when everyone else doesn’t care enough about their particular interest to spend much time and effort opposing it. Or, as in this case, when those opposing it are more satisfied with narrow xenophobic “solutions” that don’t actually address the issue than they are with addressing the issue in a rational manner. I never said that people can’t, or shouldn’t, advocate against policies they don’t like. But the fact is that “the country” is, for better or worse, precisely represented by national policy on this issue, as on many others. I think what we see in attitudes like the OP’s, and in many others who oppose specific measures like drivers licenses for illegals, is an outlook that says “I don’t care if they’re here washing my dishes or mowing my lawn, as long as i don’t have to fork out any tax money to deal with them.” In fact, i think that’s possibly the single most prevalent attitude among Americans who oppose measures like this. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/28 "2009-04-01T19:34:06Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Agree or disagree, I don’t care, what I really came in to say is that illegal immigrants give as much as they take. Why do you think we pay such a low price for many goods and services? It’s not because we’re paying them a fare wage, that’s for sure. There’s been a lot of analysis on both sides of this by all sorts of Smart Guys, but my inclination is that it’s not true. I think there are a lot of unknowns in play, and also there are a lot of complex effects that are not always included in the various studies. As an example, many many illegal immigrants get “free” healthcare by using the local emergency room as their doctor. This cost is hard to quantify, but it’s there, and everyone else pays for it in the form of higher hospital bills, IOW higher insurance premiums. There’s no doubt that the average illegal immigrant lives a lower class lifestyle than the average middle class American, and lower even than whoever would have been doing their job had they not underbid it. They also seem to be rather hardworking, as a group. So from that perspective you could say that they are giving more than they’re getting. But that ignores the impact on the other wage-earners. If you have a guy who might have been doing landscaping for a half-decent salary and now he has to do it for minimum wage, or get some other barely-above-minimum-wage job because the jobs he might have been doing are underbid by illegal immigrants, then that guy is a net loser. It’s hard to add up all the winners (mostly business people) and losers (mostly blue collar workers). But my sense is that overall it’s a losing proposition, and that “big picture” the country’s resources are being spread over a larger group of people without a corresponding growth in productivity. I could be wrong. More significant than the above is the impact on the next generation. I am convinced that a big part of why the illegals are so hard-working and willing to live such humble lifestyles is precisely because they are illegal and can’t do any better, and it still beats their home countries. But their kids are going to be US citizens, and they are not going to live in fear of the INS, and they are going to be eligible for all sorts of government handouts. So they are not going to be motivated to work long hours for minimum wages when they can apply for government programs that will support them a lot better with a lot less effort. So the real price we pay is yet to come. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/29 "2009-04-01T19:38:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But “the country,” in the form of current policies and practices, has made quite clear that getting rid of them isn’t important enough to actually do anything about it. OK. What of it? > [@](#): > > I never said that people can’t, or shouldn’t, advocate against policies they don’t like. That’s all I see going on in this thread. > [@](#): > > But the fact is that “the country” is, for better or worse, precisely represented by national policy on this issue, as on many others. Well the way you frame it, the country is precisely represented by national policy on every issue, by definition. > [@](#): > > I think what we see in attitudes like the OP’s, and in many others who oppose specific measures like drivers licenses for illegals, is an outlook that says “I don’t care if they’re here washing my dishes or mowing my lawn, as long as i don’t have to fork out any tax money to deal with them.” In fact, i think that’s possibly the single most prevalent attitude among Americans who oppose measures like this. That attitute makes a lot of sense to me, and I don’t see anything wrong with it. Another way of putting it is “I would rather if they weren’t here, but once they are I may as well take advantage of what they do have to offer.”. ---
**Author:** ![Thorium\_Indium\_Potassium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c2a13f/32.png) [@Thorium\_Indium\_Potassium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thorium_Indium_Potassium)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/30 "2009-04-01T19:42:41Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > You know, that’s a reasonable, rational, valid way of putting it. Touché. Hmmm… I’m going to have to mentally chew on that a while. First let me just say that I’m impressed that you’re actually reading other people’s responses and at least thinking about them. So often in the Pit and on other boards, people argue vehemently from other sides for no apparent reason because neither side actually reads what the other is typing. As for this line: > [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > I think the U.S. can’t be, shouldn’t be, the welfare state of choice for those who want a better life than what their own home country has to offer them. Isn’t that exactly what the US has attempted to be for at least a century? Our main beacon - the Statute of Liberty - has this plaque on it: > [@](#): > > ``` > Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, > With conquering limbs astride from land to land; > Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand > A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame > Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name > Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand > Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command > The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. > "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she > With silent lips. "**Give me your tired, your poor, > Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, > The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. > Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me**, > I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" > > ``` When did the US drift away from this? When it got too hard? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/31 "2009-04-01T19:47:27Z")
> [@Thorium\_Indium\_Potassium](#): > > When did the US drift away from this? When it got too hard? We can’t be the lifeboat for the world. Seriously, we can only absorb so many at time. Hence the whole LEGAL alien angle. You think if we instanty moved all of the Mexicans to Florida they would magically be fully integrated, speak perfect english, have good educations, and all have good paying middle class jobs? No it would just be Mexico in a different location with a few Crackers and retired New Yorks wondering WTF just happened. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/32 "2009-04-01T19:50:16Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > More significant than the above is the impact on the next generation. I am convinced that a big part of why the illegals are so hard-working and willing to live such humble lifestyles is precisely because they are illegal and can’t do any better, and it still beats their home countries. But their kids are going to be US citizens, and they are not going to live in fear of the INS, and they are going to be eligible for all sorts of government handouts. So they are not going to be motivated to work long hours for minimum wages when they can apply for government programs that will support them a lot better with a lot less effort. The assumption that the U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants are “not going to be motivated to work long hours for minimum wages when they can apply for government programs. . .” is unwarranted, don’t you think? Perhaps those children will be highly motivated, work their butts off and achieve quite a bit. It’s certainly arguable that the children of parents with a serious work ethic will have a good work ethic themselves. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/33 "2009-04-01T19:51:32Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s all I see going on in this thread. There’s a difference between arguing against someone’s position, on the one hand, and saying that they shouldn’t take a position that they feel is right, on the other. If someone doesn’t like current immigration policy, i completely support their right to argue against it, and to lobby against it, and to vote against it. But it doesn’t mean that i’m going to agree with the actual position they take, or that i won’t call their position “stupid” if that’s what i think of it. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well the way you frame it, the country is precisely represented by national policy on every issue, by definition. Isn’t that really true, though? I mean, we elect our representatives to make national policy on our behalf, so any and every policy they enact is, by definition, representative of the nation. And i think this is true for policies i agree with, as well as policies that i don’t. For example, i think federal drug laws are ridiculous, and that we need a completely new strategy in the so-called Drug War. But current drug policy is the policy of “the country,” whether i like it or not. It doesn’t mean that i agree with it, or that i won’t argue against it. It’s simply a truism, is all. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That attitude makes a lot of sense to me, and I don’t see anything wrong with it. Another way of putting it is “I would rather if they weren’t here, but once they are I may as well take advantage of what they do have to offer.”. And, given their willingness to “take advantage of what [illegals] have to offer,” i think it’s perfectly reasonable to accuse them of rank hypocrisy when they start whining about illegals. If you really don’t want them here, then do your best to make sure that you are not part of the “pull” factor that attracts them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![hdc\_bst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9f8e36/32.png) [@hdc\_bst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hdc_bst)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/34 "2009-04-01T19:52:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > More significant than the above is the impact on the next generation. I am convinced that a big part of why the illegals are so hard-working and willing to live such humble lifestyles is precisely because they are illegal and can’t do any better, and it still beats their home countries. But their kids are going to be US citizens, and they are not going to live in fear of the INS, and they are going to be eligible for all sorts of government handouts. So they are not going to be motivated to work long hours for minimum wages when they can apply for government programs that will support them a lot better with a lot less effort. > > So the real price we pay is yet to come. I’m a bit on the fence in this issue. I agree with **Jimmy Joe** ’s preference that people abide by the law, but trying to provide a better life for your family strikes a powerful sympathetic chord. In response to **Fotheringay** ’s posted concern, does anyone have any statistics either way? Second generation immigrants in general, I believe, tend to be hard working and productive. Are there any studies to support or deny this? Any studies that also include legality of parents? On preview I see \*\*Saintly Loser \*\*is thinking along the same lines. ---
**Author:** ![Thorium\_Indium\_Potassium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c2a13f/32.png) [@Thorium\_Indium\_Potassium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thorium_Indium_Potassium)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/35 "2009-04-01T19:55:32Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > We can’t be the lifeboat for the world. > > Seriously, we can only absorb so many at time. Hence the whole LEGAL alien angle. > > You think if we instanty moved all of the Mexicans to Florida they would magically be fully integrated, speak perfect english, have good educations, and all have good paying middle class jobs? > No it would just be Mexico in a different location with a few Crackers and retired New Yorks wondering WTF just happened. I understand that we can only absorb a certain amount at once, and I’m wholly behind legal immigration (shoot, my husband is a legal immigrant). I just think that it’s been proven time and time and time again that our current legal immigration system is utter crap. It’s simply not working and we can’t just stand around and say, “sorry folks, we’re closed.” It goes against what America stands for (or at least what it used to stand for). ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/36 "2009-04-01T19:57:21Z")
> [@Thorium\_Indium\_Potassium](#): > > Isn’t that exactly what the US has attempted to be for at least a century? Our main beacon - the Statute of Liberty - has this plaque on it… When did the US drift away from this? When it got too hard? Unfortunately, the fact is that our resources are finite. There comes a time when we simply can’t support any more people. While I admire the lofty aspiration of more than a century ago, I also sadly conclude that Miss Liberty will, one day but hopefully none too soon, resemble the leg of Ozymandias. Yes, taking in all the tired, the poor, the huddled masses is a laudable sentiment, but it isn’t sustainable forever. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/37 "2009-04-01T19:57:54Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The assumption that the U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants are “not going to be motivated to work long hours for minimum wages when they can apply for government programs. . .” is unwarranted, don’t you think? Perhaps those children will be highly motivated, work their butts off and achieve quite a bit. It’s certainly arguable that the children of parents with a serious work ethic will have a good work ethic themselves. At any rate, it’s unlikely they’ll be comparing their situations to living in the impoverished homeland of their parents. They’ll be wanting the Jeep Cherokee and plasma TV life, and with a bit of luck, their folks will have instilled some work ethics in them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/38 "2009-04-01T20:05:20Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Those receiving medical attention could get it but would be immediately reported and deported. If you’re a hospital that treated an illegal and didn’t report it- massive fines/jail. Can I just say that this part, at least, is an extremely bad idea? The net result of it is going to be fewer illegal immigrants seeking health care. Not just for physical injuries, but also for communicable diseases. Jose has a persistent hacking cough, but he doesn’t dare go to a hospital because he doesn’t want to be sent back to Bolivia. And next thing you know, you’ve got an outbreak of tubercleosis. And that puts everyone’s health at risk, regardless of what color their passport is. > [@Jimmy Joe Meager](#): > > That being said, I think the U.S. can’t be, shouldn’t be, the welfare state of choice for those who want a better life than what their own home country has to offer them. If they’re coming here to work, then we’re not playing welfare state to them, are we? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/39 "2009-04-01T20:06:02Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > 1. “I want to do something.” > > 2. “What I want to do is illegal.” > > 3. “Therefore, I have no choice but to do it illegally.” > > No, there is another choice. Don’t do it. And expecting someone to live in abject poverty (which is the case for a hell of a lot of people in Central and South America who want to come to the US) and condemn their family to the same, instead of breaking the law to try to get a job in a country that actually has them, is an absurd choice. We are a nation of immigrants – all immigrants, not just the ones who got here first. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/40 "2009-04-01T20:09:24Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > First stab at a response… > > 1. “I want to do something.” > > 2. “What I want to do is illegal.” > > 3. “Therefore, I have no choice but to do it illegally.” > > No, there is another choice. Don’t do it. We could say the same thing about speeding. Get on certain highways, and you’ll find 90% of the people speeding because they want to get to their destination faster than the law allows. These immigrants are doing essentially the same thing, getting to their destination faster. Both speeding and immigration laws are poorly enforced, which is an indication that the government doesn’t really care all that much about the law being broken, just as long as you don’t go crazy with it. Illegal immigrants generally do tough work for low pay, keep their heads down and try to not attract too much attention. The fact is, we do not make nearly as many visas available as there are people who want to immigrate, and as there are (were) jobs for immigrants to do. Kind of like putting a 25mph limit on a superhighway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=3)