# I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600 "2009-04-01T18:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/61 "2009-04-01T21:17:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > That’s a false analogy, Jimmy Joe. (And I don’t own a house.) A house has a definite, pre-defined limit on the number of people it can support. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, houses are usually built with a certain size of family in mind. The same is not true for countries. The infrastructure doesnt just build itself and more free unused land just doesnt pop up either ya know. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/62 "2009-04-01T21:20:19Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > That’s a totally separate issue from the OP, though, which is about a state’s decision, in accordance with the political process, to grant in-state tuition benefits to a subset of that population, one whose _parents_ made that decision. Either those students were born in the United States, in which case they’re citizens, and they should already be getting in-state tuition benefits, or they were brought to the US by their parents illegally, in which case they should be deported. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/63 "2009-04-01T21:29:49Z")
What is the undocumented student going to do when they graduate? What company will hire an undergraduate who cannot produce the appropriate documentation? While I can see how a cash based general contractor, restaurant or farm can get away with hiring illegals - I do not see Xerox picking up a few college educated illegals and looking the other way during the HR process. So what is New Jersey trying to accomplish? If the goal of a state supported educational system is to have an educated workforce - educating those who can NOT legally work seems to be a waste of state money. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/64 "2009-04-01T21:32:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Either those students were born in the United States, in which case they’re citizens, and they should already be getting in-state tuition benefits, or they were brought to the US by their parents illegally, in which case they should be deported. Nice empathy you have going there. And by the way, did you know that in many states (Illinois included), people who are residing legally in the state (as dependents of people on work visas, for example) are not eligible for in-state tuition until their green cards are approved, which can take several years or longer depending on quota-related backlogs, etc.? Meanwhile, the principal green card applicant (and sometimes spouses and children, if they are far enough along in the green card process) can be working legally, paying taxes, etc., but not gaining many of the benefits of those taxes. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/65 "2009-04-01T21:34:35Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > The infrastructure doesnt just build itself and more free unused land just doesnt pop up either ya know. The US only has about 80 people per square mile. We could easily handle a billion or more people in this country. Our most densely populated state is New Jersey, and it isn’t even as densely populated as South Korea. I can’t think of what resources we’d be short of if we quadrupled our population, except maybe water, but that is more of a regional issue. To **Algher** , legalization of all illegal immigrants that have been here for 10+ years would solve that problem. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/66 "2009-04-01T21:38:19Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > The US only has about 80 people per square mile. We could easily handle a billion or more people in this country. Our most densely populated state is New Jersey, and it isn’t even as densely populated as South Korea. I can’t think of what resources we’d be short of if we quadrupled our population, except maybe water, but that is more of a regional issue. > > To **Algher** , legalization of all illegal immigrants that have been here for 10+ years would solve that problem. I have no desire to achieve the population density of South Korea, personally. As for legalization - that is a Federal issue, not a State issue. Since New Jersey is not going to be able to make all of these subsidized workers suddenly legal to work, they are instead taking money away from those people who CAN work. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/67 "2009-04-01T21:45:43Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > The US only has about 80 people per square mile. We could easily handle a billion or more people in this country. . Fixed amount of land. More people. Drives land prices up. More people vying for ALL resources drives up the price of these resources. And again, those infrastructers arent going to build themselves for free. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/68 "2009-04-01T21:48:42Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And again, those infrastructers arent going to build themselves for free. No, they’re going to be built with the taxes that nearly ALL working people are paying, whether they are here legally or not. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/69 "2009-04-01T21:50:31Z")
I live in NJ and voted for Corzine enthusiastically. I happen think he’s dead wrong on this issue and agree with the OP. Three of my neighbors have lost their jobs and are still looking for jobs months later. There are for rent signs all over the neighborhood from people who cannot sell their homes. Community officials are talking about ending bus service to the local elementary school and laying off a teacher or two because revenues are down. Oh and I have found the NJ DVM itself to be a complete nightmare to work with. I have found employees there unhelpful and unpleasant. Of all the things he could worry about this strikes me as perhaps the least important issue possible. Let Corzine worry about bringing decent jobs to the state or even reforming the DVM so that I can actually get factual answers when I call. If he wants to encourage educated LEGAL immigrants who will come here and stay here and maybe even employ some of my neighbors that’s fine. But granting benefits and what amounts to state issued ID to temporary migrants who may or may be here tomorrow strikes me as a ludicrous waste of both money and time. There are far better ways to help combat poverty than to encourage those suffering from it to move here. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/70 "2009-04-01T21:50:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s hard to add up all the winners (mostly business people) and losers (mostly blue collar workers). But my sense is that overall it’s a losing proposition, and that “big picture” the country’s resources are being spread over a larger group of people without a corresponding growth in productivity. I could be wrong. > > More significant than the above is the impact on the next generation. I am convinced that a big part of why the illegals are so hard-working and willing to live such humble lifestyles is precisely because they are illegal and can’t do any better, and it still beats their home countries. But their kids are going to be US citizens, and they are not going to live in fear of the INS, and they are going to be eligible for all sorts of government handouts. So they are not going to be motivated to work long hours for minimum wages when they can apply for government programs that will support them a lot better with a lot less effort. > > So the real price we pay is yet to come. I read people express concern about generous government handouts. Will you provide actual government data to help me understand these programs better – eligibility requirements, average amount people receive, length of time people live on handouts, etc. Also, most children model their parents behavior. It seems unlikely that a child would be raised by hard working parents and not learn to value work. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/71 "2009-04-01T21:51:34Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Nice empathy you have going there. > > And by the way, did you know that in many states (Illinois included), people who are residing legally in the state (as dependents of people on work visas, for example) are not eligible for in-state tuition until their green cards are approved, which can take several years or longer depending on quota-related backlogs, etc.? Meanwhile, the principal green card applicant (and sometimes spouses and children, if they are far enough along in the green card process) can be working legally, paying taxes, etc., but not gaining many of the benefits of those taxes. I’m not an empathetic person. And no, I didn’t know that until you just told me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/72 "2009-04-01T21:58:17Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And again, those infrastructers arent going to build themselves for free. I guess we’d need a large labor force to build them, then. I wonder where we could get one? > [@Jimmy Joe Meager](#): > > As has been previously pointed out, generally speaking the quality of life for the illegal immigrant is raised, but the quality of life for citizens is lowered (via lower wages). So in that sense yes, we are playing welfare state to them. Not really. They’re working, and they’re paying taxes, which means they’re paying for the government services they’re consuming. So there’s pretty much no sense in which we’re playing a welfare state to them, unless you want to start inventing new definitions of the term, “welfare.” > [@](#): > > My argument is that we, as a country, have reached, in my opinion, the number of people we can accommodate. And your basis for this conclusion is… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/73 "2009-04-01T22:08:12Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > I read people express concern about generous government handouts. Will you provide actual government data to help me understand these programs better – eligibility requirements, average amount people receive, length of time people live on handouts, etc. I don’t know if there are any. One aspect of welfare programs is that there are many many of them, and they work independently of each other. (In fact, one particularly outrageous aspect of the way these things typically run is that money received from working counts as “income” and affects benefit levels and eligibility, but money received from other welfare programs does not. But I digress.) Welfare advocates like to point to the cash payment AFDC statistics, but there are any number of other welfare programs that pay for rent, utilities, food, medical care, education and more. These are frequently operated by different agencies, and I don’t know if anyone has or can get an overall sense of what’s going on in total. I should make clear that with all that, no one is going to become rich by (legally) living off government handouts. But you can live fairly decently, and if you are used to that lifestyle the marginal benefit of working for a living is often not enough to overcome the natural laziness that afflicts us all. > [@](#): > > Also, most children model their parents behavior. It seems unlikely that a child would be raised by hard working parents and not learn to value work. Many will and some won’t. In addition, many of the hardworking immigrants are not working so hard out a principled work ethic. They have no other choice. But the kids will. And when they contemplate killing themselves like their parents did to live the hardscrabble life that their parents do versus taking the offer of free whatever that the nice lady or brochure described, the latter choice will be very tempting. Of course, I guess they could make the choice to go for the top and decide to set their goals early on on being CEOs of corporations. But I don’t see that happening. Remember, this is primarily the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum that we are talking about, and one that has some amount of language barrier as well (although the children of illegals generally tend to speak English, from what I can tell). Essentially all I’m saying is that these children of immigrants are not likely to be any different that most other people of their socioeconomic status. All we see now is a temporary disconnect because the parents have the most common option removed, by virtue of their illegal status. But I would expect things to revert to form, when this barrier is lifted. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/74 "2009-04-01T22:10:46Z")
Then why not help these children of lower economic status get a college education so they can move solidly into the middle class? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/75 "2009-04-01T22:14:16Z")
It’s great if they go to college. Question is taking money from other people for that purpose. Different people have different perspectives on taking money away from people who worked for it to give to other people. For me, it needs to be a very compelling reason, and giving it to guys who weren’t supposed to be here to begin with is not compelling enough, even if it will genuinely help them. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/76 "2009-04-01T22:18:05Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > Then why not help these children of lower economic status get a college education so they can move solidly into the middle class? Because they will not be able to use that college education to get into the middle class as they are not allowed to legally work. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/77 "2009-04-01T22:25:41Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > There is a huge fucking difference between robbery and crossing an arbitrary border. Hey, that actually looks like an argument! (See, I was just kidding before about how good your argument was.) Now, you’re right. There are differences between illegal withdrawal of bank money and illegal border crossing. Would you care to explain which of those differences is fatal to my analogy? Because that would be just AWESOME for the health of your struggling argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/78 "2009-04-01T22:31:07Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > But apparently he \*had \* the choice; are you denying the fact that the vast majority of the human race does not have that choice? > > (And out of professional curiosity, how did he qualify?) I actually don’t know – and Dad passed away, so I can’t ask him. I will ask my Mom when I talk to her, though, and see if she knows. But I agree – since more people wish to come here than there are slots for, some are denied that choice. In fact, as I hinted above, his first try ended up not working, and he returned to El Salvador and tried again. But my argument, “Why is it so impossible for people to choose not to obey the law?” My dad did, even when it meant he couldn’t stay here. It used to infuriate him when people came here illegally, in large measure because he played by the rules, and had to leave here and return to a life of very little opportunity… but he did it, because he didn’t want to live in this country as a criminal. Why is that such a ridiculous viewpoint? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/79 "2009-04-01T22:31:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I Not really. They’re working, and they’re paying taxes, which means they’re paying for the government services they’re consuming. So there’s pretty much no sense in which we’re playing a welfare state to them, unless you want to start inventing new definitions of the term, “welfare.” So, your telling me these illegals have paid into the social security system from day one? That those day laborers (and their employers) are paying their share of SSI and FICA taxes? And any number of other “taxes” and gubment payments that LEGAL US citizens are? News to me amigo ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/80 "2009-04-01T22:38:53Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, your telling me these illegals have paid into the social security system from day one? That those day laborers (and their employers) are paying their share of SSI and FICA taxes? And any number of other “taxes” and gubment payments that LEGAL US citizens are? > > News to me amigo Can we take the “amount of taxes that illegals pay” into a separate thread? That one is regularly hashed out, and IMHO is separate from the question of instate tuition rates for illegal immigrants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=5)