# I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600 "2009-04-01T18:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/81 "2009-04-01T22:50:30Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Leaving aside the morality of illegal immigration, in this case the people being punished by the lack of in-state tuition for illegal immigrants are _kids_. They didn’t overstay a visa or decide to cross a border on their own - their parents made the decision for them. A lot of these kids have spent the majority of their lives in the US and have gone to school here and would like to go on to higher education and are finding themselves shut out of the system. > > I have a lot of sympathy for these kids. Nitpick: The article suggests that the proposed extension of in-state tuition to illegal immigrants would _not_ be limited just to those who came here as kids. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/82 "2009-04-01T23:13:04Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > You know, that’s a reasonable, rational, valid way of putting it. Touché. Hmmm… I’m going to have to mentally chew on that a while. > First stab at a response… > > 1. “I want to do something.” > > 2. “What I want to do is illegal.” > > 3. “Therefore, I have no choice but to do it illegally.” > > No, there is another choice. Don’t do it. > > I realize that most illegal immigrants come here looking for a better life \*for themselves \*(and possibly for their families). I am sympathetic to that. Given the circumstances many of them are coming from, I feel downright sorry for them. That being said, I think the U.S. can’t be, shouldn’t be, the welfare state of choice for those who want a better life than what their own home country has to offer them. This isn’t a “but I want to walk on the grass!” type law break. In many cases it’s a “I’m too poor to afford food in my home country so I’ll take my chances here” type law break. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/83 "2009-04-01T23:19:14Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Jeeze, not _this_ argument again. Ask the Native Americans how that worked out for them. > > (Yeah, yeah, I know, I know… and _they_ immigrated from Asia 10,000+ years ago, yadda yadda yadda.) Generally Mexicans aren’t genocidal smallpox infested maniacs like the American forebearers were. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/84 "2009-04-01T23:26:45Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Can we take the “amount of taxes that illegals pay” into a separate thread? That one is regularly hashed out, and IMHO is separate from the question of instate tuition rates for illegal immigrants. No, because isnt this one of most peoples main beefs about it? People seem to have two main beefs about illegals. First, they are, by definition, breaking the law. Secondly, they are getting their money for nothing and their chicks for free to both exagerate and give a nod to MTV. IF these illegals arent paying their fair share INTO the system thats giving a good rate for INSTATE tuition, then other LEGAL residents ARE carrying an ADDITIONAL financial load. IF that is true and these folks are here illegally to boot, I can certainly see why that would chap some people’s ass. So, taxes and money sure as heck are part of the debate IMO. If the state was just deciding “hey, wanna come to our colleges and pay outa state rates like everyone else”, I bet 90 percent of the heartburn would go away for most people". ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/85 "2009-04-01T23:29:27Z")
A few disjointed points: It bothers me that people think that because they are born in the USA they are somehow entitled to a standard of living in the top 5% the world. This sense of entitlement sickens me, and it sickens me even more when I see these entitled people look down on people desperately struggling for a better life. If you can’t be out some uneducated illegal immigrant that doesn’t even speak English for a job then that’s your fault, not the immigrants. It’s inexcusable for someone with access to the American education system to even be in competition with an illegal immigrant. It annoys me that people don’t comprehend the benefit we get from illegal immigrants. I get my burgers flipped for cheap, and some immigrant gets a chance at a better life. It should be win freaking win, and it is except for those people I talked about in the paragraph above. This punish the child for the sins of the parents pisses me off as well. Why should some teenager who knows no other country but the U.S. be booted out because he came here, through no fault of his own, at the age of 2? Why should they be set adrift and denied benefits of what is their home country. It annoys me that people don’t see the pattern of immigration. It goes uneducated immigrant --\> Educated hard working children --\> Average American children. The 2nd generation immigrants are typically assimilated and much more motivated in education/career (since their parents never got the chance to have either). The 3rd generation of immigrants are fully assimilated and virtually indistinguishable from 10th generation Americans. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/86 "2009-04-01T23:35:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Why is that? It seems like the same argument to me. As a practical matter, the vast majority of these people could not legally immigrate, for whatever reason. But just because there aren’t enough slots, that does not mean they have the right to enter our country willy-nilly. Now I think legal immigration needs to be revamped, and a guest-worker program put in place, but until more slots are created, those people have no right—ZERO—to decide to sneak in here. A country has a right to set it’s own immigration policy and enforce it. Period. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/87 "2009-04-01T23:40:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > From the point of view of the immigrant himself, especially a poor immigrant, “no legal means of immigration” and “not enough slots for immigration” are effectively the same thing. That’s not really true. “Not enough slots” means that “slots” do exist, that they are part of the equation. It means that one might have to wait for slots next year, or the year after. “No legal means” says that legal immigration is an impossibility. Not the same thing. “Effectively” or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/88 "2009-04-01T23:46:24Z")
> [@Thorium\_Indium\_Potassium](#): > > When did the US drift away from this? When it got too hard? Oh, please. Just because we don’t throw the door open for everyone who wants to come here doesn’t mean we aren’t a welcoming country to immigrants. And you might take into account the U.S. when the statue was erected and now. There have been times in our history when it behooved us to encourage immigration. and there are times when the need to do so isn’t there. It is right for us to adjust our immigration policy to serve the needs of the country at a particular time. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/89 "2009-04-01T23:49:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Can I just say that this part, at least, is an extremely bad idea? The net result of it is going to be fewer illegal immigrants seeking health care. Not just for physical injuries, but also for communicable diseases. Jose has a persistent hacking cough, but he doesn’t dare go to a hospital because he doesn’t want to be sent back to Bolivia. And next thing you know, you’ve got an outbreak of tubercleosis. And that puts everyone’s health at risk, regardless of what color their passport is. Which is why we need to lock down the borders completely. We can then allow in 10 a year or 10 million, with each of them being properly screened. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/90 "2009-04-02T00:00:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Which is why we need to lock down the borders completely. We can then allow in 10 a year or 10 million, with each of them being properly screened. Well, I don’t really agree with that concept, but regardless, it doesn’t address the problem I pointed out. It’s not going to be possible to completely 100% prevent illegal immigration. No matter what barriers we throw up, some number of people are going to figure out a way around them. And once they’re here, some of them are going to become sick, and we need to deal with that intelligently. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/91 "2009-04-02T00:03:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But my argument, “Why is it so impossible for people to choose not to obey the law?” My dad did, even when it meant he couldn’t stay here. It used to infuriate him when people came here illegally, in large measure because he played by the rules, and had to leave here and return to a life of very little opportunity… but he did it, because he didn’t want to live in this country as a criminal. Why is that such a ridiculous viewpoint? You might also want to consider that your dad was willing to go through the process of immigrating here legally in - what, 1960, or thereabouts? The process has likely changed greatly since then. Were he trying to come here today, he might not have the same options for legal entry, which may influence his opinion on illegal entry. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/92 "2009-04-02T00:07:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, I don’t really agree with that concept, but regardless, it doesn’t address the problem I pointed out. It’s not going to be possible to completely 100% prevent illegal immigration. No matter what barriers we throw up, some number of people are going to figure out a way around them. And once they’re here, some of them are going to become sick, and we need to deal with that intelligently. What is your opinion on the steps we should take to know who is coming in. Are you happy with what is happening now? When the great waves of immigrants came in through Ellis Island, each of them was checked for health issues. Those who might have been a danger were sent back. Now, we have a border where people are regularly crossing it. How do we ensure that we keep those with communicable diseases out? It seems you’re fine with letting them in and letting them—no, hoping—they take advantage of our healthcare system. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/93 "2009-04-02T00:10:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You might also want to consider that your dad was willing to go through the process of immigrating here legally in - what, 1960, or thereabouts? The process has likely changed greatly since then. Were he trying to come here today, he might not have the same options for legal entry, which may influence his opinion on illegal entry. Of course, you are correct that that is a possibility. But you must grant that there are people who do chose to NOT break the law and sneak in here illegally. That animal does exist, and it appears that Bricker the Elder should be _assumed_ to fall into that group. Small point, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/94 "2009-04-02T00:23:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You might also want to consider that your dad was willing to go through the process of immigrating here legally in - what, 1960, or thereabouts? The process has likely changed greatly since then. Were he trying to come here today, he might not have the same options for legal entry, which may influence his opinion on illegal entry. Anything is possible. However, my dad found a six-year-old error when he was redeeming savings bonds and fought with the bank manager for several days before winning his points – and losing about $75, since the error had not been in his favor. He was scrupulously honest. It’s extremely difficult for me to imagine circumstances in which he would have chosen to break the law to live here. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/95 "2009-04-02T00:31:56Z")
Two of my grandparents legally immigrated from Sicily. My neighborhood is overwhelmingly Hispanic nowadays. When my two American-born grandparents lived in this house, it was a completely white Anglo Saxon neighborhood. Things change. However, the Hispanics that I talk to (and usually I do tend to talk to Hispanics, because that’s who are around me) that are here legally are infuriated at illegal immigrants. They say that the illegals give ALL Hispanics a bad name, and cause a heightened distrust of Hispanics, whether they’re here legally or not. They want the illegal immigrants to go back home, and get it right. I’m sure that the legal immigration process is hideously complicated and expensive, and I believe that this is an area where we should focus our efforts. I don’t think that we are obligated to take in every immigrant. I think that we have a right to say who we will take in, and how many of them. And I think that we have the right and even the duty to decline to provide incentives for illegal immigrants to make the journey here, and then profit while they stay here. Our first concerns should be for our own citizens and legal immigrants. While I have sympathy for the kids, I really don’t think it’s their fault, I think that maybe they wouldn’t be in this situation if their parents had followed the law. I think it’s grossly unfair for the illegal kids to get a state subsidized education. Yes, it’s grossly unfair that some people are born in countries that are poor, corrupt, and have few prospects. However, this is life. I think that these countries, instead of encouraging illegal immigration to the US, would be better served if they took all these hardworking, highly motivated people and used them to better the native country. I recognize that I would never have been born had Grandma and Grandpa stayed in Sicily, but again, that’s life. While we’re throwing analogies around, I’d like to point out that I have all kinds of sympathy for homeless cats. However, I don’t adopt or feed every homeless cat I come across. I know that my family can accommodate three cats at any one time, and so I have set a maximum of three permanent cats in the Bodoni household. If I allowed every stray cat that crossed my path to live in my house, I would soon become one of those people you read about in the paper, the ones with hundreds of cats in the house, with cat food and cat shit piled knee-high. I can take care of three cats, and keep them fed and clean, and the house fairly clean. People are not cats, but limits are limits. We have to recognize that we DO have to set limits in every aspect. Every new person who moves into an area will have an impact on the environment. We need some areas for housing, some for infrastructure, and some for growing/raising food. When the Statue of Liberty was erected, we thought that America could absorb many more people, and at the time, it could. However, we are starting to find that our population should be kept within limits. We can’t absorb everyone else in the world, unless, of course, we wish to start annexing other nations. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/96 "2009-04-02T00:36:37Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Leaving aside the morality of illegal immigration, in this case the people being punished by the lack of in-state tuition for illegal immigrants are _kids_. They didn’t overstay a visa or decide to cross a border on their own - their parents made the decision for them. A lot of these kids have spent the majority of their lives in the US and have gone to school here and would like to go on to higher education and are finding themselves shut out of the system. > > I have a lot of sympathy for these kids. Yup. The article does seem to be focusing on the kids of illegal immigrants, and really, they’re a seperate group to illegal immigrants themselves. Question: do the children of _legal_ immigrants pay in-state tuition fees? > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Either those students were born in the United States, in which case they’re citizens, and they should already be getting in-state tuition benefits, or they were brought to the US by their parents illegally, in which case they should be deported. Oh yeah, kids who’ve grown up in the US should definitely be sent ‘back’ to a country they barely remember. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’m not an empathetic person. And no, I didn’t know that until you just told me. You sound proud of not having any empathy. Have you sought psychiatric help? If not, you should. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Nitpick: The article suggests that the proposed extension of in-state tuition to illegal immigrants would _not_ be limited just to those who came here as kids. But it does focus on the kids. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/97 "2009-04-02T00:43:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s not really true. “Not enough slots” means that “slots” do exist, that they are part of the equation. It means that one might have to wait for slots next year, or the year after. “No legal means” says that legal immigration is an impossibility. Not the same thing. “Effectively” or otherwise. As i said, from the point of view of the impoverished Mexican would-be immigrant, it’s a distinction without a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/98 "2009-04-02T00:54:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know if there are any. One aspect of welfare programs is that there are many many of them, and they work independently of each other. > > If these are government programs, there must be data. It shouldn’t matter if different agencies run the programs. It doesn’t matter what agency is responsible for the program. If it is a government program, there will be data. Usually, someone, somewhere analyzes the data for a journal or policy paper. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > (In fact, one particularly outrageous aspect of the way these things typically run is that money received from working counts as “income” and affects benefit levels and eligibility, but money received from other welfare programs does not. But I digress.) I don’t understand the point. If government aid depends on income, how can the aid be considered income to determine eligibility? > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Welfare advocates like to point to the cash payment AFDC statistics, but there are any number of other welfare programs that pay for rent, utilities, food, medical care, education and more. These are frequently operated by different agencies, and I don’t know if anyone has or can get an overall sense of what’s going on in total. AFDC doesn’t exist, so those statistics aren’t relevant. Please point me in the direction of these other programs that pay people’s rent and utilities. I am just asking you or anyone to show me the money. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I should make clear that with all that, no one is going to become rich by (legally) living off government handouts. But you can live fairly decently, and if you are used to that lifestyle the marginal benefit of working for a living is often not enough to overcome the natural laziness that afflicts us all. You are projecting a personally held belief onto the entire population. I am not lazy. Are you lazy? > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In addition, many of the hardworking immigrants are not working so hard out a principled work ethic. They have no other choice. But the kids will. And when they contemplate killing themselves like their parents did to live the hardscrabble life that their parents do versus taking the offer of free whatever that the nice lady or brochure described, the latter choice will be very tempting. You are saying that undocumented immigrants are lazy in spite of the fact they work hard, and their children grow up to be lazy although they observed hard working parents. Are undocumented workers deeply flawed genetically or what? This seems to be what you are suggesting. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Of course, I guess they could make the choice to go for the top and decide to set their goals early on on being CEOs of corporations. But I don’t see that happening. Remember, this is primarily the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum that we are talking about, and one that has some amount of language barrier as well (although the children of illegals generally tend to speak English, from what I can tell). Why can’t children in lower socioeconomic situations aspire to be a CEO? Is the U.S. suddenly a cast system? ESL is taught in schools, so what other reasons prevent these children from achieving? ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/99 "2009-04-02T01:18:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I forgot to respond to this earlier. > > As someone who is currently in the process of legally becoming a US resident, my experience with the whole process gives me precisely the opposite viewpoint. I completely understand why a poor person without much English, without much money, with little formal education, would do all he or she could to avoid the process. Thank you for this post. People not familiar with the process should understand the cost and hoops involved. The new citizenship test should be a national embarrassment. I don’t think people need to worry too much about immigrants. I doubt people will want to continue immigrating to the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/100 "2009-04-02T01:20:35Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Because they will not be able to use that college education to get into the middle class as they are not allowed to legally work. Legally? No. But as a practical matter, yes. I know of at least two cases of educated middle class workers who were actually undocumented. An employer is not required (except in certain cases) to verify documents, it is a matter of “good faith”. It’s not like it’s unheard of to present a fake social security card, and let’s face it, if you’re educated and middle class, there’s even less suspicion. Further, I have never heard of an ICE raid on an accounting firm or the like. It’s very very likely an undocumented college-educated immigrant could and would work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=6)