# I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600 "2009-04-01T18:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/141 "2009-04-02T13:09:35Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > This isn’t a “but I want to walk on the grass!” type law break. In many cases it’s a “I’m too poor to afford food in my home country so I’ll take my chances here” type law break. Agreed. That being said… **Cuckoorex** , in a different thread, used the phrase “the Little Timmy argument”. It went something like “Little Timmy was a good kid. A saint, in fact. But, due to the unfortunate circumstances of his birth, he had no choice but to support himself by unlawful means. And… then… \ \*tha man \*beat him down! Poor little Timmy! Won’t someone think of the children!” Your argument seems to be of the Little Timmy variety. Yes, his home country sucks. Even so, this country can’t and shouldn’t be the solution for every person in the world who’s country sucks. By my (admittedly unscientific) estimate, there are a billion or three people in the world today who’s standard of living is far, far below the average of the U.S. Can they all come here? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/142 "2009-04-02T13:16:37Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > American forebearers were genocidal smallpox infested maniacs. _(edited)_ I that claim is obviously unable to be substantiated. Or in other words… Cite? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/143 "2009-04-02T13:17:31Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Should the children of bank robbers be able to benefit from their parents’ ill-gotten gain? No, but we don’t punish the kids either. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/144 "2009-04-02T13:26:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > By my (admittedly unscientific) estimate, there are a billion or three people in the world today who’s standard of living is far, far below the average of the U.S. Can they all come here? No, but maybe we can afford to take on more than 5,000 per year. This is where the law and order side falls apart. The level of restriction in legal immigration is so high as to be completely divorced from the reality of the desire of immigrants to live/work here and the desire of businesses to hire them. When the law is not realistic, people will not follow it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/145 "2009-04-02T13:36:49Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It bothers me that people think that because they are born in the USA they are somehow entitled to a standard of living in the top 5% the world. I know you’re not talking about me, because I, personally, am not entitled to anything. I see it as a blessing, and a random fate, that I’ve been born a citizen of the USA. The fact that my standard of living is so high is a simple fact, not an entitlement. I fully expect that if I just sit back on my ass and do (A) nothing to support myself and (B) do nothing to support my country then yes, my standard of living will fall. It isn’t an entitlement, it’s a privilege. > [@treis](#): > > If you can’t be out some uneducated illegal immigrant that doesn’t even speak English for a job then that’s your fault, not the immigrants. Huh? I suspect that if I agreed to do unskilled manual labor at $1/hr less than my competition I’d get the job. It isn’t that I can’t, it’s that I choose not to. > [@treis](#): > > It’s inexcusable for someone with access to the American education system to even be in competition with an illegal immigrant. OK, you’re veering into teh crazy here. Because I happened to be born here and he happened to be born there, I’m not allowed to compete with him? That really makes no sense. > [@treis](#): > > It annoys me that people don’t comprehend the benefit we get from illegal immigrants. I get my burgers flipped for cheap, and some immigrant gets a chance at a better life. It should be win freaking win, and it is except for those people I talked about in the paragraph above. And it annoys the rest of us that you boil this entire argument down to your cheap burgers and their better life. News FLASH Einstein – it’s far more complicated than that. > [@treis](#): > > This punish the child for the sins of the parents pisses me off as well. Why should some teenager who knows no other country but the U.S. be booted out because he came here, through no fault of his own, at the age of 2? Why should they be set adrift and denied benefits of what is their home country. 'scuse me? Their “home country” is where, again? “Won’t somebody think of the children!!!” > [@treis](#): > > The 3rd generation of immigrants are fully assimilated and virtually indistinguishable from 10th generation Americans. OK, this sealed it. You really, really don’t know what you’re talking about. Adios. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/146 "2009-04-02T13:36:57Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > It doesn’t matter what agency is responsible for the program. If it is a government program, there will be data. Usually, someone, somewhere analyzes the data for a journal or policy paper. Agreed. What I said is that different programs are run by different agencies. Each agency has data for it’s own program, but no one is responsible for gathering data about the cumulative affect of the various independently-run programs. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand the point. If government aid depends on income, how can the aid be considered income to determine eligibility? Again, I’m talking about different programs. Here’s a simple example. Two guys walk in to the offices of Social Program A. Guy #1 is making $10,000 by working part time and $20,000 through a combination of various _other_ programs. Guy #2 is making $25,000, all from the sweat of his brow. The caseworker, in assessing eligibility and subsidy levels for Program A treats Guy #1 as having “income” of $10,000, and he is considered “poorer” and a higher priority for assistance, and Guy #2 is treated as having income of $25,000 and with lower priority and entitlement levels, though in reality Guy #1 has more money (or the equivalent) coming in than Guy #2. > [@](#): > > Please point me in the direction of these other programs that pay people’s rent and utilities. I am just asking you or anyone to show me the money. Rent is paid by HUD/Section 8. Utilities are paid by HEAP. You can look all this stuff up, if you’re interested. > [@](#): > > You are projecting a personally held belief onto the entire population. I am not lazy. Are you lazy? Yes. Almost all people are lazy. You seem to be a rare exception. > [@](#): > > You are saying that undocumented immigrants are lazy in spite of the fact they work hard, and their children grow up to be lazy although they observed hard working parents. Are undocumented workers deeply flawed genetically or what? This seems to be what you are suggesting. You ignored what I wrote. Lazy people (IOW virtually all people) will work hard if they have to. They won’t work hard to the extent that they have easier options. > [@](#): > > Why can’t children in lower socioeconomic situations aspire to be a CEO? Is the U.S. suddenly a cast system? They can. But it’s not likely that they will see this as a realistic option. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/147 "2009-04-02T13:45:24Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Not to mention that it is an argument immigrants have no reason or obligation to abide by. When it is our law, they have no reason or obligation to abide by it? By American law, only X number of immigrants are allowed into the country per year. And you say that if an immigrant doesn’t agree with that law, they have no obligation to abide by it? That’s astounding. Really. Am I allowed to ignore laws that I disagree with? Are you? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/148 "2009-04-02T13:52:02Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > What makes the entire situation truly sinister is that the same people hiring the undocumented workers and recruiting temporary workers in developing countries are the same people launching the public hate campaigns intended to scapegoat undocumented workers and grossly misrepresent the issue. I believe this is factually incorrect. I think you’re just thinking of business groups and Republicans as one indistinguishable group. This issue actually breaks across ordinary fault lines, with Republicans and labor unions generally anti-illegal and Democrats and business groups pro. That’s one reason nothing gets done about it. > [@](#): > > If Americans want to protect their labor rights and income, I believe the best solution is to demand that undocumented workers earn the same pay and have the same legal protection as American citizens There is some truth to this. On the one hand it would ostensibly encourage more illegal immigration. OTOH, if you combined this with rigorous penalties for hiring illegals, no corporation would want to hire them. Nothing to gain. The problem is that the corporations are not always able to tell who is or is not illegal, what with the proliferation of phony IDs these days. If that problem could be surmounted, it would be a lot easier. Although a lot of illegals are employed by small companies that would fall under the radar. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/149 "2009-04-02T13:52:03Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > I know you’re not talking about me, because I, personally, am not entitled to anything. I see it as a blessing, and a random fate, that I’ve been born a citizen of the USA. The fact that my standard of living is so high is a simple fact, not an entitlement. I fully expect that if I just sit back on my ass and do (A) nothing to support myself and (B) do nothing to support my country then yes, my standard of living will fall. It isn’t an entitlement, it’s a privilege. Maybe you don’t fall into the “they took our jobs!” crowd. If not, then that paragraph doesn’t apply. > [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Huh? I suspect that if I agreed to do unskilled manual labor at $1/hr less than my competition I’d get the job. It isn’t that I can’t, it’s that I choose not to. Uh, yeah that’s the point. A person born and raised in America should be shooting at a much more skilled position than an illegal immigrant. > [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > OK, you’re veering into teh crazy here. Because I happened to be born here and he happened to be born there, I’m not allowed to compete with him? That really makes no sense. No, you’re veering into the crappy reading comprehension here. I don’t compete with illegal immigrants for my job because I took advantage of the American education system and I have a million times more skills than an illegal immigrant. > [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > And it annoys the rest of us that you boil this entire argument down to your cheap burgers and their better life. News FLASH Einstein – it’s far more complicated than that. No, it’s really not. > [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > 'scuse me? Their “home country” is where, again? “Won’t somebody think of the children!!!” Their home country is the one they grew up in, and the only one they know. > [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > OK, this sealed it. You really, really don’t know what you’re talking about. Adios. Uh, I’m pretty sure I do. That story is the story of my family, and millions of others like it. I play the role of the 3rd generation, and you can’t tell me apart from a 10th generation American. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/150 "2009-04-02T13:52:41Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by treis View Post > > The 3rd generation of immigrants are fully assimilated and virtually indistinguishable from 10th generation Americans. > > OK, this sealed it. You really, really don’t know what you’re talking about. Adios. What do you mean by this last? Are you saying the immigrants are easily distinguished from non-immigrants, even many generations removed? How exactly is that done? Is there a ‘look’, a ‘walk’, a ‘style’, what? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/151 "2009-04-02T14:03:07Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Can anyone answer this question for me? The answer depends somewhat on the state in question, but generally it depends on their own immigration status. If the students are US citizens or permanent residents, they are treated just like any other US citizens or permanent residents. Currently, as far as I know, most states do not award in-state tuition rates to students who are not permanent residents or US citizens, even if they are residing legally in the US (see my previous example about people who are merely waiting for their green cards to be approved, becuse of processing and quota-related backlogs). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/152 "2009-04-02T14:10:09Z")
There’s no doubt that in the past 3rd generation immigrants have been vitually indistinguishable from 10th generation. Whether this will continue to be true for the current wave of Hispanic immigrants is an open question. The basis for this uncertainty is that the current level of support for the Spanish language is unparralleled by anything in the history of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/153 "2009-04-02T14:10:46Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > OK, I’ll bite… where are the new jobs going to come from? Ummm, the same place they come from when they are created by US citizens and permanent residents - [tax payments and demand created by increased population.](http://immigration.server263.com/images/File/factcheck/StateandLocalStudySurvey04-17-08.pdf) You know both of those items tend to multiply throughout the eoconomy, right? I have to go now - I’m leaving town on vacation tomorrow, and I have to finish up a bunch of work visas on the meantime. So if I don’t respond to everything, it’s not because I’m wilfully ignoring anyone. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/154 "2009-04-02T14:46:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s no doubt that in the past 3rd generation immigrants have been vitually indistinguishable from 10th generation. Whether this will continue to be true for the current wave of Hispanic immigrants is an open question. > > The basis for this uncertainty is that the current level of support for the Spanish language is unparralleled by anything in the history of the US. I don’t think is uncertain at all. I have met many people in Miami with Spanish last names, who are the children of immigrants from Cuba and who don’t speak a word of English. Their parents do, but they have moved on. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/155 "2009-04-02T14:55:45Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > What do you mean by this last? Are you saying the immigrants are easily distinguished from non-immigrants, even many generations removed? How exactly is that done? Is there a ‘look’, a ‘walk’, a ‘style’, what? Examples… Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn. African-Americans. Chinese-Americans. Italian-Americans. Greek-Americans (Astoria, Queens). There are communities where some (_some_) members tend to marry others of their ethnic background, even for several generations, even here in America, and they do retain specific cultural ‘markers’ (e.g. foods, religions, political opinions, manner of dress), even for several generations, even here in America. But you knew that, right? ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/156 "2009-04-02T15:15:58Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Examples… > > Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn. African-Americans. Chinese-Americans. Italian-Americans. Greek-Americans (Astoria, Queens). There are communities where some (_some_) members tend to marry others of their ethnic background, even for several generations, even here in America, and they do retain specific cultural ‘markers’ (e.g. foods, religions, political opinions, manner of dress), even for several generations, even here in America. > > But you knew that, right? Not really, I don’t know much about cultural groups in the US. So what you’re saying is not that you can tell immigrants just by looking at them, but that ‘some’ immigrants retain cultural markers, and that makes them easy to spot, correct? So what kind of cultural markers do African-Americans retain that allows you to spot their ‘immigrant’ status? Or Italian-Americans? Do they wear specific clothing that makes them stand out? Or Greek-Americans? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/157 "2009-04-02T15:44:28Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I never said he could stay here. I said that my attitude to him staying here is not affected by the fact that he’s Chinese rather than Mexican. > > To be quite honest, i don’t care very much if Google or Microsoft want to employ him. But he has to make the same sort of calculations that i would make in similar circumstances: is it worth the risk of getting caught? > > For the Mexican farm worker, the risk is worth it because the worst punishment he can suffer for getting caught is to be sent back where he came. And he can then simply try to re-enter the US again and go back to what he was doing. > > For someone with a PhD in computer science, getting caught will result in deportation, and will probably also result in never again being allowed to come to the US to seek work. That’s probably a bigger deal for a professional with post-secondary education than it is for an uneducated agricultural worker. > > I jump through all the hoops in my attempt to become a US resident, not because i have a particular love for bureaucracy, or a special affection for US immigration procedures. I do it because i want to live with my wife and have a career here, and staying illegally would put all that in jeopardy. If your Chinese friend decides that he’s willing to risk permanent deportation for the chance to work here, i’m not going to lose any more sleep over that than i do over a farm worker. So what is your point? That people who break the law do so based on the probability of getting caught and the consequences? Well, duh. But what is the _policy_ that you propose? Unfettered immigration, allowing priority for skilled labors, being more/less draconian, increasing quotas (if so, for what groups: there are about 15x more Chinese and Indians than Mexicans)? ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/158 "2009-04-02T16:12:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > More significant than the above is the impact on the next generation. I am convinced that a big part of why the illegals are so hard-working and willing to live such humble lifestyles is precisely because they are illegal and can’t do any better, and it still beats their home countries. But their kids are going to be US citizens, and they are not going to live in fear of the INS, and they are going to be eligible for all sorts of government handouts. **So they are not going to be motivated to work long hours for minimum wages when they can apply for government programs that will support them a lot better with a lot less effort.** > > So the real price we pay is yet to come. (bolding added) I’m coming into this thread late, so forgive me if this has been addressed already. In this scenario, how are the kids of aliens going to be any different than the kids of long time residents? Every citizen can utilize those programs. I’m pretty certain that no one would expect a caste system when the children of minimum (or sub-minimum) wage workers are expected or limited to performing the same work and pay as their parents. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/159 "2009-04-02T16:12:49Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > I don’t think is uncertain at all. I have met many people in Miami with Spanish last names, who are the children of immigrants from Cuba and who don’t speak a word of English. Their parents do, but they have moved on. I think his point was this. In previous waves of immigration, if you didnt speak english, tough shit for you. There was quite an incintive to learn at least rudimentary english. Today? Shit, you can probably get a degree from some liberal university without ever learning english (somewhat of an exageration). Which I despise. Come here, learn English damnit. Instead we catter to Spanish speakers. But what about the Russians?. Lithuanians?. Zulus? Aliens from Morbo? If there were only 2 or 3 languages in the world it would be one thing. But geezus on a pogo stick. Are the natives here supposed to learn and cater to dozens if not hundreds of OTHER languages. YOU wanted to come HERE. YOU learn the language of HERE. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600/160 "2009-04-02T16:24:34Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > In this scenario, how are the kids of aliens going to be any different than the kids of long time residents? Every citizen can utilize those programs. That’s all true. I don’t see what your point is with this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-njs-soon-to-be-illegal-immigrant-help/491600.md?page=9)