# I Pit NotOkay for convincing the entire board umkay had died! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044 "2012-06-23T07:01:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/481 "2012-06-25T13:18:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The dangers of witch hunts are not excused by the presence of an actual witch. Seconded. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/482 "2012-06-25T13:19:04Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > You don’t understand the concept of witch hunt. Neither did the Duke Blue Devils Lacrosse team. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/483 "2012-06-25T13:20:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The dangers of witch hunts are not excused by the presence of an actual witch. In actual witch hunts people look for something that does not exist in reality. Trolls are real and are a part of life on the internet and this board. ETA: There is a difference between looking for evidence to back your supposition and a witch hunt. In this case the supposition of a poster being too good to be true was borne out by a little investigation - not a witch hunt. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/484 "2012-06-25T13:25:54Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > In actual witch hunts people look for something that does not exist in reality. Trolls are real and are a part of life on the internet and this board. The McCarthy hearings were called witch hunts - and rightfully so - even though there actually \*were \*communists in the United States, albeit far fewer than McCarthy and his ilk claimed. The problem with witch hunt isn’t that what they’re hunting for doesn’t exist, it’s that the collateral damage from the search is far worse than the threat posed by the purported target. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/485 "2012-06-25T13:27:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The dangers of witch hunts are not excused by the presence of an actual witch. And if someone’s real, being told their story sounds a bit hinky is not the worst thing in the world. It won’t actually kill anyone. Believe me, I’ve had more than my share of outright internet vitriol directed my way, worse than anything anyone said about umkay. It didn’t kill me either. People are complaining about smugness in this thread - well, frankly, part of it comes from being told that expressing skepticism makes you an asshole. Even now, some the people who wagged their fingers at those posters who said she was a troll are falling over themselves to remind everyone that even though _we_ were right, _they_ still have the moral high ground. It’s bullshit. Stories like this get exposed because people get a hunch that something’s not adding up, and they share that hunch. That’s how it always starts. Incontrovertible evidence doesn’t fall out of the fucking sky. Those of you who want to maintain a culture of “don’t ever say you suspect someone, that’s meeeeeeaaaaannnnnn” are not doing this board any favors. I fucking _hate_ the attitude that critical thinking is bad and Being Nice At All Times is The Only Thing That Matters. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/486 "2012-06-25T13:29:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The McCarthy hearings were called witch hunts - and rightfully so - even though there actually \*were \*communists in the United States, albeit far fewer than McCarthy and his ilk claimed. The problem with witch hunt isn’t that what they’re hunting for doesn’t exist, it’s that the collateral damage from the search is far worse than the threat posed by the purported target. Whatever dude. She seemed like a troll to some so they checked her out and it proved to be right. You are shoe-horning the meaning to fit your needs. Checking facts and being skeptical is par for the course here. No one is being tied to a steak. . ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/487 "2012-06-25T13:31:33Z")
McCarthyism _ruined people’s lives_. Like, actual real life lives. This is shenanigans on a fucking message board, get a fucking GRIP for all that is holy. No wonder some of you were so invested in her, if you are this lacking in perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/488 "2012-06-25T13:42:32Z")
Expressing doubt and skepticism all the time at every fishy poster does make one an asshole. If you have peeped that something is fishy, you don’t post about it. You just cock your eyebrow and think, ‘heh. This poster is trolling’. Now, when they start taunting you with obvious trollery to the level of Notokay coming on the scene, and posters are still all, “Oh my! Why would notokay do this horrible thing to Umkay!”, then, it is time to actually speak up and say, “Whoa, guys. This is getting really ridiculous”. Pointing that out doesn’t make someone an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/489 "2012-06-25T13:43:30Z")
Excuse me, but _I_ was the one criticizing people for getting too excited. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/490 "2012-06-25T13:46:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Excuse me, but _I_ was the one criticizing people for getting too excited. Please tell me more about the dangers of witch hunts and how McCarthyism is relevant to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/491 "2012-06-25T13:53:52Z")
> [@Myrnalene](#): > > People are complaining about smugness in this thread - well, frankly, part of it comes from being told that expressing skepticism makes you an asshole. I think unidirectional skepticism either breeds assholery, or tends to originate from assholes, I’m not sure which. Maybe a bit of each. There’s a big difference between saying, “I don’t think her story adds up,” and saying, “She’s a troll, everybody jump on her.” And that’s the difference between skepticism and unidirectional skepticism. There was a good bit of each in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/492 "2012-06-25T13:59:42Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > There’s a big difference between saying, “I don’t think her story adds up,” and saying, “She’s a troll, everybody jump on her.” I didn’t see anyone saying “let’s jump on her” or any call to action. I saw some people express reasonable doubt. For myself, I saw prr state that she was a troll and I was basically like, “lol, yup.” That some people expressed certainly pissed some of you off, but I didn’t see _anyone_ saying “let’s go get her!” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/493 "2012-06-25T13:59:50Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Aren’t you dead yet\*? Seriously–I thought that all this snark and meanness would have have caused your vagina to get so full of sand that you exploded. Geezus. Mythbusters really is running out of material. Now I see why that Kerry lady got the hell out of there. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/494 "2012-06-25T14:05:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think unidirectional skepticism either breeds assholery, or tends to originate from assholes, I’m not sure which. Maybe a bit of each. > > There’s a big difference between saying, “I don’t think her story adds up,” and saying, “She’s a troll, everybody jump on her.” And that’s the difference between skepticism and unidirectional skepticism. There was a good bit of each in this thread. Seems like you are adding that ‘everybody jump on her’ bit to bolster your own viewpoint. There is a time to call a spade a spade. “I don’t think her story adds up” is kind of a candyass way to say, “she’s a troll”. If you think it is time to say ‘I don’t think her story adds up’ then it is the time to step into the pit and say, ‘she’s a troll’. If you can’t say that, then you should fuck off with the ‘her story doesn’t add up’ applesauce. I had to tell myself this. I was tempted to softshoe it, because I didn’t want to come off as an asshole. But that’s bullshit. The time had come to say, “she’s a troll”. That notokay thread had folks really sounding crazy up in this thread. The time had come. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/495 "2012-06-25T14:07:31Z")
It’s interesting that umkay’s last activiy was minutes after **Sarabellum** ’s post. Coincidence? Maybe. It’s also possible that he/she realized that the game was was, and now he/she is sitting back laughing it’s a$$ off at the feeding frenzy going on between the believers and the skeptics. ETA: Which, who knows, might have been the desired result all along. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/496 "2012-06-25T14:09:47Z")
I have no problem with skepticism, but people early on were not just doing that, they were demanding identification, stating with absolute certainty “TROLL! Fake!” etc. Saying “hey, something isn’t adding up here, and I think there may be an issue” is one thing. Pointing the finger and shouting from the rooftops is another, and that’s where people jumped the gun. Skepticism isn’t being a jerk. This wasn’t skepticism, this was indictment, and there’s a big difference. Indictment with proof is fine…indictment with ‘gut feeling’ is outright damaging. Sure, you were right this time, but that doesn’t mean you’ll be right every time, and it sets a dangerous precedent. People often forget that there are real people behind the keyboard, and while I don’t have a problem with outing a troll, wait until you have some proof before jumping up and down and stomping. Let’s say there was a break in in your neighborhood, and you have a gut feeling that the next door neighbor did it. Maybe you saw them walk by and look at the house closely earlier in the day or something. Something maybe struck you as odd. Now, of course, you would mention this to the police and such, but it is certainly not damning evidence of a crime, it’s just something that pricks up your ears and says to you ‘I bet he did it.’ Would you then make signs and post them around the neighborhood claiming “Mr. Smith robbed a house! Watch out for Mr. Smith?” Or, less drastic, would you raise it at a neighborhood gettogether and announce that Mr. Smith is a thief and a criminal without any real concrete proof? Of course you wouldn’t…you’d wait until the investigation was complete before making that kind of statement. It really doesn’t matter if you end up being right in this case, it’s generally not a good thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/497 "2012-06-25T14:15:07Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I vote for this as the most boring and redundant pitting ever. While we’re admitting to being wrong this morning, I was probably the wrongest one of all when I posted this early on. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/498 "2012-06-25T14:15:28Z")
So, in other words, Jman, you’re mad that other people figured out something you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/499 "2012-06-25T14:16:33Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > Sure, you were right this time, but that doesn’t mean you’ll be right every time, and it sets a **dangerous** precedent. I don’t actually make a habit out of insisting people are trolls, but I will keep that in mind for next time. Also: _ **danger!** _ > [@Jman](#): > > Let’s say there was a break in in your neighborhood, and you have a gut feeling that the next door neighbor did it… Let’s not, because once again, _real life things with real life serious consequences are not relevant to this thread_. They are not comparable. I’m really starting to worry about some of you. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044/500 "2012-06-25T14:19:05Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > So, in other words, Jman, you’re mad that other people figured out something you didn’t. Um, no, not at all. I couldn’t care less about that part of it. I’m not mad at anyone. My whole point is that decorum seems to go out the window too often online, and people will do things and treat other people in ways that would seem way out of line in real life, such as public accusations with limited proof. If you read through, you will see that early on I admitted it was possible that she was fake, but that given the evidence at that time, I didn’t believe it to be the case. Now there has been new evidence that makes the case much more damning, and I’m perfectly willing to admit when I’m wrong. Thing is, even if I DID think that umkay was trolling, I wouldn’t have flat out accused her of that without really compelling evidence, because I think the fallout from being wrong about the accusation is far worse than the fallout from giving someone the benefit of the doubt here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-notokay-for-convincing-the-entire-board-umkay-had-died/626044.md?page=26)