# I pit Novelty Bobble **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2021, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914 "2021-11-06T22:48:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/102 "2022-08-09T17:52:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Hard to be quite sure what people actually think when straight answers are hard to come by. > > You might help a little on this. Do I think use of the n-word should be categorically banned by law as a carveout from First Amendment protections? No, I do not. Glad I could help. If you want to reframe your all-lives-matter-natter as a generalized debate on socially permissible and impermissible uses of racial slurs, I suppose you could start a thread on it in an appropriate forum and see if anybody’s interested. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/103 "2022-08-09T18:00:04Z")
I wouldn’t want to count the number of times I’ve seen this in the wild, “How come _the blacks_ can use that word but I can’t call _the blacks_ that word?” Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/104 "2022-08-10T06:09:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Do I think use of the n-word should be categorically banned by law as a carveout from First Amendment protections? No, I do not. And you prove my point, people do not want to give straight answers to straight questiosn. That wasn’t what I asked ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/105 "2022-08-10T06:12:40Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Well, we certainly wouldn’t want to limit ourselves to the circumstances in the case being discussed would we No, I certainly wouldn’t. That isn’t helpful ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/106 "2022-08-10T06:15:19Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I wouldn’t want to count the number of times I’ve seen this in the wild, > “How come _the blacks_ can use that word but I can’t call _the blacks_ that word?” > Emphasis mine. I’ve never heard that said in that way, but I’ve certainly heard it said that someone who isn’t black can never actually use or mention the word under _any_ circumstances. Which I think is a ridiculous statement. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/107 "2022-08-10T07:38:52Z")
ISTM that _can_ is a perfectly good proxy for _should_. I’ve never had a problem with it, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/108 "2022-08-10T07:50:19Z")
It is a terrible proxy in many, many situations. “I can drink half a bottle of whiskey and drive a car” Happy to have that “can” substituted for a “should”? ---
**Author:** ![omenran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omenran/32/3318_2.png) [@omenran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omenran)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/109 "2022-08-10T08:08:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > My original point that was always that there is a difference between _mentioning_ a word and _using_ a word. I find myself baffled by this, could you provide an example where you mention a word but not use it? Any word works, I just feel I need an example to grasp your distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/110 "2022-08-10T08:14:51Z")
> [@omenran](#): > > I find myself baffled by this, could you provide an example where you mention a word but not use it? Any word works, I just feel I need an example to grasp your distinction. It would be the difference between telling someone that using “word x” to insult a person is not on, versus actually calling someone “word x” as a means of insulting them. Or famously, on the BBC in primetime a respected newsreader uttered the word “cunt”. It was a slip of the tongue of course and very different from if he had actively directed that insult at a guest. It was judged accordingly and quite rightly very little fuss was made. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/111 "2022-08-10T10:59:06Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Do you think that there are any circumstances under which using that word could be considered permissible? Yes: virtually all circumstances, with certain exceptions, including certain exceptions for government employees, small children, and folks in official proceedings like courtroom trials. I also think that under most circumstances, folks who use the word can face pretty serious social consequences, and that those consequences should be considered permissible. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/112 "2022-08-10T11:28:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes: virtually all circumstances, with certain exceptions, including certain exceptions for government employees, small children, and folks in official proceedings like courtroom trials. I think you mean “no” rather than “yes” Otherwise the rest of your post makes no sense. But that’s fine, taking the spirit of the answer we are left in agreement that there are certain circumstances in which that language is permissible. I see no benefit in listing out in advance what all those circumstances are. Such a list will necessarily always be imperfect. I have no problem judging each case on it’s own merits. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I also think that under most circumstances, folks who use the word can face pretty serious social consequences, and that those consequences should be considered permissible. Do you agree? I have no problem with there being social consequences for people who use the word in certain ways in certain circumstances. Whether that is “most circumstances” is something I couldn’t comment on. I hear it used so rarely that I’m in no position to judge. I don’t think it is possible to know if it is warranted or not without knowing the context of the usage in the individual case. Again, I see no benefit in ignoring the context completely and according to your first comment above, you too think that it matters. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/113 "2022-08-10T11:56:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think you mean “no” rather than “yes” Otherwise the rest of your post makes no sense. ??? You asked “Do you think that there are any circumstances under which using that word could be considered permissible?” and I absolutely meant “yes.” Not sure how you’re reading otherwise. “Permissible” implies that someone is able to permit a behavior, and that implies that they’re able to forbid it. It suffers from the classic passive voice problem: _who’s doing the permitting?_ You don’t specify, but in general, that’s the government. I don’t think the government should outlaw the use of the word under most circumstances. If you mean something else by “permissible,” you’ll need to clarify your meaning, and ideally avoid any relatives of the passive voice. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/114 "2022-08-10T12:08:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > ??? You asked “Do you think that there are any circumstances under which using that word could be considered permissible?” and I absolutely meant “yes.” Not sure how you’re reading otherwise. You followed the “yes” with this sentence. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > virtually all circumstances, with certain exceptions, including certain exceptions for government employees, small children, and folks in official proceedings like courtroom trials. Which from your previous posts didn’t sound correct and I assumed you’d misread my question or typo’d. I’ve no problem in helping to clarify. As it stands your answer reads as though you think that the word is permissible in all circumstances apart from government employees, small children and courtrooms. (where the implication is that it is not permissible). Is that an accurate reflection of what you think? If it is then I apologise for getting your previous stance completely wrong but it certainly reads completely differently from what I’d previously understood your position to be. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/115 "2022-08-10T12:16:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > As it stands your answer reads as though you think that the word is permissible in all circumstances apart from government employees, small children and courtrooms. (where the implication is that it is not permissible). > > Is that an accurate reflection of what you think? If it is then I apologise for getting your previous stance completely wrong but it certainly reads completely differently from what I’d previously understood your position to be. That’s correct. I interpret “permissible” to mean that nobody is effectively withholding permission. That’s true in most cases, but government employees (teachers, DMV workers) may be sanctioned by the government for using the n-word, and small children may have the permission effectively withheld by parents or other adults, and folks in courtrooms can be charged with contempt for their speech. In other words, first amendment protections extend to the n-word just as they extend to everything else. I think this is a distraction of an argument: not many folks believe otherwise, I think, and so by moving the discussion out of “should folks face social consequences for using hateful language” and into “WHY DO YOU WANT THE GUMMINT TO BAN THE WORD???!?!!?” you’re asking folks to defend a position they never adopted. If you somehow derived, from my previous posts, a belief that I think the word should be forbidden by authorities, that’s on you. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/116 "2022-08-10T12:25:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In other words, first amendment protections extend to the n-word just as they extend to everything else. I think this is a distraction of an argument: not many folks believe otherwise, I think, and so by moving the discussion out of “should folks face social consequences for using hateful language” and into “WHY DO YOU WANT THE GUMMINT TO BAN THE WORD???!?!!?” you’re asking folks to defend a position they never adopted. I’m not asking you to do that. By your own admission you’ve taken “permissible” to be a legal term when I think clearly the discussion has been much more about social acceptability and permissibility and the world’s reaction to various usages. I don’t think I’ve strayed into the area of legally enforced hate speech to any great extent. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you somehow derived, from my previous posts, a belief that I think the word should be forbidden by authorities, that’s on you. Well clearly I’d derived no such thing, hence my complete confusion when you suddenly started responding in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/117 "2022-08-10T12:42:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m not asking you to do that. By your own admission you’ve taken “permissible” to be a legal term when I think clearly the discussion has been much more about social acceptability and permissibility and the world’s reaction to various usages. I don’t think I’ve strayed into the area of legally enforced hate speech to any great extent. Then what on earth do you mean by “permissible”? This is why you’re not getting straight answers: your questions are too vague to get the answers you want. You clarify that by “permissible” you mean “social acceptability and permissibility and the world’s reaction to various uses,” which is just as vague. Are you trying to ask whether I think people should accept the use of the n-word under most circumstances? Can you please avoid the passive voice in your answer, as well as the “-able” or “-ible” suffixes, which are essentially passive in construction? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/118 "2022-08-10T12:52:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Then what on earth do you mean by “permissible”? This is why you’re not getting straight answers: your questions are too vague to get the answers you want. You clarify that by “permissible” you mean “social acceptability and permissibility and the world’s reaction to various uses,” which is just as vague. It is a difficult question to pin down, that’s fine. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are you trying to ask whether I think people should accept the use of the n-word under most circumstances? clearly not, that’s not even remotely what I’ve been asking. There are people who are extremely dogmatic that under no circumstances is that word acceptable (and feel free to imagine for yourself what “acceptable” actually means) My question, in whatever form it takes, is aimed at understanding whether you take that view yourself. Perhaps it is easier to consider it in the reverse. i.e. do you think that there are some circumstances in which the use of the word is acceptable, by that lets assume I mean that that particular usage should neither be particularly remarkable nor attract any substantial degree of social attraction. i.e. like the “cunt” example I previously mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/119 "2022-08-10T13:21:04Z")
I’ll try. The important context is what “use” means here. _My friend Bob almost got in a fight last night, **he said** “I shoulda killed that **epithet**!”_ That’s me mentioning a word, but not “using” it. _My friend Bob almost got in a fight last night, **I said** “You shoulda killed that **epithet**!”_ That’s me using a word. I’m sure that won’t clear this up. And the other problem is we, generally, have an expectation that certain words are simply not used by certain people in certain circumstances. So, maybe no one would be outraged if coach said, say, “fuck” in the middle of the game on the field but if coach says in the post game TV interview . . . that’s different. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/120 "2022-08-10T13:24:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is a difficult question to pin down, that’s fine. The hell it’s fine. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There are people who are extremely dogmatic that under no circumstances is that word acceptable (and feel free to imagine for yourself what “acceptable” actually means) The fuck? Why would I feel free to imagine what “acceptable” means in your paraphrase on what you think other people are saying? You’re repeatedly unwilling to explain your own words, and want me to imagine what they might mean, and then say whether I agree with my imagination of the meaning of your paraphrase of your interpretation of an unnamed person’s posts? There’s a reason why you’re not taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914/121 "2022-08-10T13:32:20Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Perhaps it is easier to consider it in the reverse. i.e. do you think that there are some circumstances in which the use of the word is acceptable, by that lets assume I mean that that particular usage should neither be particularly remarkable nor attract any substantial degree of social attraction. > i.e. like the “cunt” example I previously mentioned. Okay, this edit clarifies your meaning a bit, although “social attraction” is gibberish, and there’s no need for “assuming” what you mean by words, just goddamn tell us. When a person against whom the slur is historically directed and who is the target of the historical and systemic oppression uses the word, I don’t find need to remark on it, and I’ve got no interest in censuring the word, barring other factors. Under very limited educational settings, the word must be used. (One of my daughters asked me what the N-word was, and I prefaced it by explaining that it made me uncomfortable to say and that it was a word with a really terrible history and that it didn’t need to be used, and then I told her what it was, so she’d know). There are a few other circumstances where I won’t object to the use of the word. But I’ll object to most uses. And if folks find that their use of the word turns out badly for them, I’m pretty okay for the most common examples of “turns out badly.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-novelty-bobble/953914.md?page=7)