# I PIT Obama's Jobs Speech **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499 "2011-09-07T13:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rekd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Rekd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rekd)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/1 "2011-09-07T13:28:24Z")
I’m gonna go ahead and get started early… :eek: The jobs speech will have 3 main components 1. continue the payroll tax holiday 2. extended unemployment benefits again to encourage people to continue not looking for a job 3. $300 billion payoff to the unions, err, I mean in infrastructure improvements This is not much different than Stimulous 1. Its really a political ruse which will announce a program to spend money we don’t have and to do something that has already proven failure. Then they’ll hammer the repubs for refusing to climb on board to another failed spending plan that we can’t afford. Its not going to be about jobs its about re-election and America knows it. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/2 "2011-09-07T13:31:56Z")
I’m so tired of speeches from Obama. If his title was “grand speechmaster of the united states of america” he’d be doing a bang-up job. Unfortunately for us, he was not elected to give speeches. If Obama wants to get anything done with the economy, he’s going to have to play dirty. Stop with the finger pointing and the finger wagging, and get down in the mud Mr. President. I will probably watch the speech anyway, but man is Obama a major dissapointment. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/3 "2011-09-07T14:00:58Z")
> [@Rekd](#): > > 1. continue the payroll tax holiday Except that cutting taxes for people who spend their paychecks actually makes a glimmer of sense. That money ends up circulating around the economy instead of in some rich bastard’s brokerage account. > [@](#): > > 1. extended unemployment benefits again to encourage people to continue not looking for a job But unemployment is a systemic problem. The jobs just aren’t there. Cutting people off will only make things worse, and as in 1., the money ends up circulating around the economy, doing some good. > [@](#): > > 1. $300 billion payoff to the unions, err, I mean in infrastructure improvements Does the plan have anything specifically to do with unions? Do you have a cite? I’ll be surprised if only unions are allowed back to work. If that really is the case, unemployed people will be better off joining a union anyway, unless they prefer working for $8/hr with no benefits… > [@](#): > > This is not much different than Stimulous 1. Its really a political ruse which will announce a program to spend money we don’t have and to do something that has already proven failure. People say that the first stimulus didn’t work because it wasn’t big enough. A lot of experts are saying we really ought to be borrowing money to spend on getting people back to work, considering treasuries are now below 2%, and that boosting payrolls eventually leads to higher tax revenues which can pay back the borrowed money and then some. Employment now, debt later. It is kind of a ‘people first’ approach that actually adds up. > [@](#): > > Its not going to be about jobs its about re-election and America knows it. I won’t be surprised if this is turned into election hay, but overall I have to say I am used to more well thought-out arguments here on the 'dope. I don’t think you make your case. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/4 "2011-09-07T16:23:42Z")
Debt is meaningless in a recession. It’s a red herring issue that the right is using to further its own agenda. As any competent economist will tell you, you must spend to get out from under recession/depression… The first stimulus was hamstrung by Republicans and, while it helped, it wasn’t enough to completely undo eight years of Republican malfeasance. Obama brings up the same issues because those are the solutions that will work, if given half a chance. And he needs to revise the taxation system, although that will go nowhere. The OP’s snipe at unions is just bullshit from another right winger. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/5 "2011-09-07T16:32:15Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The OP’s snipe at unions is just **bullshit from another right winger**. Isn’t this a bit redundant? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/6 "2011-09-07T16:35:57Z")
OK, OK, stupid bullshit from another right winger! Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/7 "2011-09-07T16:37:51Z")
On the whole, yeah. I think it was the unbanning that did it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/8 "2011-09-07T16:42:01Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Debt is meaningless in a recession. It’s a red herring issue that the right is using to further its own agenda. As any competent economist will tell you, you must spend to get out from under recession/depression.. If we need spending, then put the money where it will do the most good: in the hands of the public. Cut a check to everyone who filed a tax return last year for 50% of the tax due calculated on that return. Don’t call it a prebate or treat it as anything other than a flat out refund of taxes. The economy will spark very nicely. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/9 "2011-09-07T16:50:20Z")
Here’s the deal. Stuff thats broke, or is likely to break soon, has to be fixed. We have to fix today or tomorrow. Whats the case for fixing it today? One, the materials are cheaper than they are going to be when (and if) the economy improves. The prices of steel, concrete etc. are bound to go up. So, it will be a lot more expensive to fix it later than sooner. People need the work. Duh. The work needs to be done. Double duh. People are eager to loan us the money at rates that will not get better. This program is far too modest and doesn’t nearly go far enough. The Obama team most likely figures they’ll be lucky to get this much. The only upside is that if the Forces of Darkness reject this plan, they will be casting themselves in the worst possible light. But we must, must must! extend unemployment benefits, we must extend aid to the states, we must help our people. If they aren’t our people, who’s people are they? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/10 "2011-09-07T16:55:53Z")
> [@Rekd](#): > > … 2. extended unemployment benefits again to encourage people to continue not looking for a job … > … Its not going to be about jobs its about re-election and America knows it. So, his re-election strategy is to keep the unemployment numbers artificially high? CMC fnord! You do understand that people getting unemployment benefits are counted as unemployed as opposed to (IIUC) people who don’t get them not being counted at all? (Which IIRC is how “they” lowered the unemployment rate during the Reagen years . . . they just stopped counting people that didn’t have jobs and only counted people collecting unemployment benefits.) ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/11 "2011-09-07T16:57:49Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > If Obama wants to get anything done with the economy, he’s going to have to play dirty. Stop with the finger pointing and the finger wagging, and get down in the mud Mr. President. > > I will probably watch the speech anyway, but man is Obama a major dissapointment. I don’t understand this sentiment at all. You know the president isn’t actually a king, right? If Congress simply refuses to do anything, what exactly do you expect the President to do? He can’t make laws. The Republicans have proven that they are perfectly happy to sit back and do nothing and blame whatever happens on him. And why shouldn’t they? It works. So you can’t compromise with them (because they don’t want a win in the President’s column) and you can’t bully them – what else can he do? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/12 "2011-09-07T16:59:01Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > If we need spending, then put the money where it will do the most good: in the hands of the public. Cut a check to everyone who filed a tax return last year for 50% of the tax due calculated on that return. Don’t call it a prebate or treat it as anything other than a flat out refund of taxes. > > The economy will spark very nicely. No, it won’t. If you hand money back to taxpayers, they bank it or use it to pay off debts. That’s what happened last time a stimulus check was mailed out ot taxpayers. If you want to get the economy rolling, you need to get people to _spend_ money. So you fund infrastructure maintenance/construction work. Companies make/deliver/build products. People have jobs along the way, and the money changes hands over and over again on up the line all the way to the people who are harvesting/mining/pumping raw materials. There is widespread agreement among economists: infrastructure spending is what’s needed to get the economy moving again. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/13 "2011-09-07T16:59:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If they aren’t our people, who’s people are they? Their own and they are solely responsible for their lousy position in life and the economy. They deserve to suffer, for they are sinners who lay with their own kind, smoke marijuana, don’t hate immigrants, listen to NPR and vote Democrat. Or so I hear from my mother, who makes Dick Cheney seem soft and fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/14 "2011-09-07T17:04:21Z")
> [@Rekd](#): > > 1. extended unemployment benefits again to encourage people to continue not looking for a job I am genuinely puzzled by this, the jobs figures out of USA rather clearly indicate lack of job creation, on what planet does this then indicate jobless are “not looking”? I am all in favour of unemployment regimes that encourage people to seek work, but I have never read an analysis (a real one, not some political wankery) of USA unemployment regimes that suggest they are an issue. I have to think this is another thing generated by a mestatisation of the American right into a kind of mirror of the communist party (by which I mean that irrational attachment to ridiculous ideological reading and stereotype trumps pragmatic governance). > [@](#): > > 1. $300 billion payoff to the unions, err, I mean in infrastructure improvements Again, bizarre. What on earth is the problem with infrastructure. Everything I read (and based on my visits to the USA, validated by personal observation) is that USA infrastructure is in a sad and sorry shape as compared with other OECD countries. How is good economic infrastructure a payoff to trade unions? Given decline in USA competitiveness, I would think that investment in infrastructure would be a priority. Again flabbergasted. > [@](#): > > This is not much different than Stimulous 1. Its really a political ruse which will announce a program to spend money we don’t have and to do something that has already proven failure. ?? Your Central Bank governor, a Republican has called for more stimulus. Of course he’s a properly educated economist, not an ideologue so… > [@](#): > > Then they’ll hammer the repubs for refusing to climb on board to another failed spending plan that we can’t afford. Mate you can borrow long at negative real interest rates, USA can afford it if it wants to. Good bloody Christ. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/15 "2011-09-07T17:06:08Z")
If he stresses work on the infrastructure, I will be happy. I doubt anyone is unable to see how bad it is and it is getting worse. But he will not get a major project past the Repubs. So he should go big and announce an enormous program. Then let them turn it down. The unemployed are desperate. Stretching out unemployment will help demand and show mercy. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/16 "2011-09-07T17:07:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > … for they are sinners who lay with their own kind, smoke marijuana, don’t hate immigrants, listen to NPR and vote Democrat. I have to say, that sounds like a pretty good weekend to me. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/17 "2011-09-07T17:08:10Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > No, it won’t. If you hand money back to taxpayers, they bank it or use it to pay off debts. That’s what happened last time a stimulus check was mailed out ot taxpayers. Debt reducation isn’t a bad thing for you. But I do agree, USA infrastructure really is in shabby shape and rehabilitation would be money well spent, particularly as you can borrow long at negative real rates. Improvement of transport infrastructure, etc. to boost economic competitiveness would be a real boon I would say. Your rail lines, for example, are in astonishingly horrid shape for an OECD nation. I’ve ridden emerging market lines in far better condition. Never mind high speed rail, rehab your freight lines, rehab your basic commuter rail, modernise signalling for improved efficiencies, etc. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/18 "2011-09-07T17:09:54Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > … for they are sinners who lay with their own kind… Whoa! I am one hundred percent species specific! Not all Texans are Aggies, you know! ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/19 "2011-09-07T17:31:07Z")
It is worth quoting Martin Wolf of the Financial Times, an economist and observer who is a far cry from ‘left’ ([Client Challenge](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9cbe577a-d872-11e0-8f0a-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz1XHwFLlEx)) > [@](#): > > "As Richard Koo of Nomura Research has argued, fiscal deficits help the private sector deleverage. That is precisely what is happening in the US and UK (see chart at bottom). In the US, the household sector moved into financial surplus after house prices started to fall, while the business sector moved into surplus in the crisis. Foreigners are persistent suppliers of capital. This has left the government as borrower of last resort. The UK picture is not so different, except that the business sector has been in persistent surplus. > > So long as the private and foreign sectors run huge surpluses (despite the ultra-low interest rates), some governments must find it easy to borrow. The only question is: which governments? Investors seem to choose one safe haven per currency area: the US federal government in the dollar area; the UK government in the sterling area; and the German government in the eurozone. … The larger the surpluses of the private sectors (and so the bigger the offsetting fiscal deficits), the faster the former can pay down their debts. Fiscal deficits are helpful, therefore, in a balance-sheet contraction, not because they return the economy swiftly to health, but because they promote the painfully slow healing. > > … there is a good answer: use cheap funds to raise future wealth and so improve the fiscal position in the long run.\*\* It is inconceivable that creditworthy governments would be unable to earn a return well above their negligible costs of borrowing, by investing in physical and human assets, on their own or together with the private sector. Equally, it is inconceivable that government borrowings designed to accelerate a reduction in the overhang of private debt, recapitalise banks and forestall an immediate collapse in spending cannot earn a return far above costs.\*\* > > Another noteworthy objection – grounded in the seminal work of Prof Rogoff and Carmen Reinhart of the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington – is that growth slows sharply once public debt exceeds 90 per cent of GDP. Yet this is a statistical relationship, not an iron law. In 1815, UK public debt was 260 per cent of GDP. What followed? The industrial revolution. > > What matters is how borrowing is used. … [if fiscal contraction is pursued] A more likely outcome, in present circumstances, is mass default, shrinking profits, damaged banks and a renewed slump. That is what would happen if today’s contained depression ceased to be contained. > > … > > Contrary to conventional wisdom, fiscal policy is not exhausted. … The need is to combine borrowing of cheap funds now with credible curbs on spending in the longer term. The need is no less for surplus countries with the ability to expand demand to do so. > > It is becoming ever clearer that the developed world is making Japan’s mistake of premature retrenchment during a balance-sheet depression, but on a more dangerous – far more global – scale. Conventional wisdom is that fiscal retrenchment will lead to resurgent investment and growth. An alternative wisdom is that suffering is good. The former is foolish. The latter is immoral." ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499/20 "2011-09-07T17:32:57Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > No, it won’t. If you hand money back to taxpayers, they bank it or use it to pay off debts. That’s what happened last time a stimulus check was mailed out ot taxpayers. Part of the reason I’m not spending is because of my debts. If I can get my current debts cleared out, I can afford to buy a new car. I agree that infrastructure is vitally important, but getting money to the working public ain’t that bad. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-obamas-jobs-speech/595499.md?page=2)