# I pit Pantsuits. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106 "2009-05-20T19:55:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/141 "2009-05-25T00:02:43Z")
> [@Miss\_Violaceous](#): > > You guys, _pantyhose has nothing to do with it._ Coming up with reasons why pantyhose are uncomfortable or impractical is just a defense to dressing less than perfectly feminine, when really we don’t owe anyone any explanations. It’s not unprofessional to dress in a way that does not accentuate curves and legs, because that shit is completely irrelevant to doing the job. But the OP is unnerved by women who are not sex objects. > > And yes, if the same women wore skirts, they’d get comments either about showing skin when not being sufficiently young or modelesque, or if they are young would get comments about being inappropriate. Being a woman means someone is always going to be nasty about your clothing, no matter what you wear. Must agree. Why go through all the explanations? The OP talks about “unprofessional” but does not provide solid arguments to that effect to be refuteed; save for an apparent belief that there is some sort of gender-appropriateness that goes with professionalism. Now, if he were complaining that someone was just throwing together sloppy outfits with badly cut, poorly made materials in disjointed patterns and styles, and trying to pass it as professional while looking like the laundry basket exploded, well, that would be another story altogether. Heck, a whole lot of males are still to this day doing the Herb Tarleck look and pretending that’s fine for the office because it involves something that can be liberally defined as resembling a buttoned shirt, jacket and tie. But he does not seem to just attack bad pantsuits or pantsuits worn in a clueless manner, he seems to be arguing that IHO, ALL pantsuits are bad or worn cluelessly, per se. Well, he’s in the minority, and the losing minority, from all signs. If a woman wants to wear an outfit that is accepted for the workplace and that allows her to be decently and comfortably dressed through the workday, then that’s what she should wear and she owes no further explanation. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/142 "2009-05-25T00:37:23Z")
Pantsuits are totally hawt! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/143 "2009-05-25T02:28:25Z")
Ya’ll could use some air conditioning because ya’ll need to chill. Only in the pit could the slightest impropriety of interpretation result in maximum perceived maleficent nationalistic intent. I’ll make it plain. She wasn’t dissin’ America yo. At most she was hating on people who waste energy when better suited clothes would work, and those folks could use some hate. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/144 "2009-05-25T11:02:18Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The term 'jingoism" derives from a British popular song used to express [chauvinistic patriotism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By_jingo): > Really, kiddo, put down the shovel. The hole is quite deep enough. 😃 Right. It’s chauvinistic patriotism that I think people of my own nationality, in my own country, are behaving in foolish ways. Seriously, you’re not reading what I’m writing at all. I have dug no hole. I said something, it wasn’t clear, I clarified it, I was repeatedly attacked and hence repeatedly clarified it. What the fuck do you want me to do, apply for a green card? Xenophobic silliness… is just too laughable to even bother with. I could point to the number of nationalities and races in London, in my building, in my classes (55 nationalities/national backgrounds in my school, mostly first or second generation. It’s fabulous), among my friends; I could point to the number of nationalities and races within my own family; I could point to my life, dedicated for long periods to the most immersive possible types of travel. But I won’t, because you’ll probably find some way that I’m hating America again. So to clarify one final and absolute time: I like strangers. I like other nations and their people. I have a problem with pricks. In this thread, the only people I called pricks were other British people, like myself (now go and look up xenophobe and patriotism again). I do not hate all of my own nation, nor love all of anyone else’s. You, for instance, **Jackmannii** , are not a great advert for yours. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/145 "2009-05-25T22:59:47Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > As for pantyhose, I can offer [this photo from the evening of the recent White House Correspondents’ Dinner](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/reliable-source/vf1.jpg). Left to right, the women in that photo are Katie McCormick Lelyveld, press secretary for the First Lady of the United States of America, Desiree Rogers, White House Social Secretary, Valerie Jarrett, Senior Advisor and Assistant to the President of the United States of America for Intergovernmental Affairs and Public Liaison and Linda Johnson Rice, President & CEO of Johnson Publishing. > > I see a whole hell of a lot of power on that sofa. What I don’t see – after a **formal** event – is a single pair of #(@\*!& pantyhose. That’s because they’re all wearing open-toed shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/146 "2009-05-26T01:56:47Z")
**Teacake** said: > [@](#): > > Really? Where did I display confusion? Here. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I have to say I think it was the defensive inference rather than the nonexistent implication which was at fault. Or how about when you said: > [@](#): > > I didn’t mention you at all, I was talking about the fact that we over here don’t usually think we need it. Except you did mention Americans. But perhaps I was also affected by this comment: **The Tao’s Revenge** said: > [@](#): > > For the record **Teacake** as an American who hates the ignorant American stereo type with a passion. I had to reread your comments a couple of times to see the potential slur. Oddly, I am not the kind to see potential slurs everywhere, but it was obvious to me. Which is not to say it was intentional, but certainly easy to pick up. But don’t blame me for **Jackmannii**. He’s got his own bug up his ass that has nothing to do with me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/147 "2009-05-26T03:16:17Z")
As far as I’m concerned, only 5% of women look good in pants. first, the crotch. Camel toes are tacky, but if the crotch of the pants is slightly too low even expensive pants make me think of Wal Mart. Then there is the butt. A woman’s but says more about her than anything else. To big, too small, too low, pants too tight or too baggy and or saggy and panty lines. Then there’s the length. Too high or too low. Womens bodies come in all shapes and sizes. Standard waist and leg length just doesn’t cover all the variables. Face it most of you women, even the hotties, You just look better, thus smarter in skirts. Most of us (men in particular) will just assume what they see on the outside will positively represent what must be underneath. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/148 "2009-05-26T03:35:38Z")
To semi-hijack this, I would like to point out that wearing muumuus all the time might be comfortable and certainly doesn’t affect your job performance for most jobs. However, I feel it essential to point out that uncomfortable dressy clothes usually serve to make you more attractive. And it’s a scientifically tested principle that attractive people are thought to be more competent, intelligent, etc etc than ugly people. This applies across every culture. Now, feel free to rail against people’s ingrained preference for attractive people, but it applies to men too. If you want to freeboob it in a burlap sack for reasons of comfort, feel free. Just realize that most people, including yourself, make snap judgments about other people based on their dress and appearance – seeing a girl in a skirt with bare legs that are pasty or have bruises or something is going to make me, and almost every other human, mark her down a little bit, just like we frown upon a guy with a bad combover or a mustard stain on his shirt. I guess my main point is that you can bitch about it, but hose or no hose, tie or no tie, tits on display or modestly covered, boxers or sculpted pouch are all things that people notice and you’re not going to change it any time soon, fair or not. (And no, this isn’t directed to any specific person, just toward the admittedly self-selected ladies who seem to be railing against uncomfortable clothes as some sort of old boy’s club chauvinism based on women knowing their place as sex objects.) ETA: Same thing applies to fat people, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/149 "2009-05-26T06:34:02Z")
I believe no less than a rant against pantsuits could have provided the stupidity necessary for this dumb seed to germinate. And look! Now the dumb seed has become a dumb flower and blossomed in the form of a truly _retarded_ argument between three otherwise intelligent posters. Bravo, you beautiful clowns. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/150 "2009-05-26T11:24:15Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Face it most of you women, even the hotties, You just look better, thus smarter in skirts. Most of us (men in particular) will just assume what they see on the outside will positively represent what must be underneath. Face it, most of you men, we just don’t care what you think as much as you hope we do. If I have pale pasty legs with bruises I’ll be sure to cover them… with pants. Problem solved! ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/151 "2009-05-26T14:07:54Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, only 5% of women look good in pants. > > first, the crotch. > > Camel toes are tacky, but if the crotch of the pants is slightly too low even expensive pants make me think of Wal Mart. > > Then there is the butt. A woman’s but says more about her than anything else. To big, too small, too low, pants too tight or too baggy and or saggy and panty lines. > > Then there’s the length. Too high or too low. > > Womens bodies come in all shapes and sizes. Standard waist and leg length just doesn’t cover all the variables. > > Face it most of you women, even the hotties, You just look better, thus smarter in skirts. Most of us (men in particular) will just assume what they see on the outside will positively represent what must be underneath. And most guys, sorry to say, have pants just as ill-fitting. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/152 "2009-05-26T14:34:04Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > A woman’s but [sic] says more about her than anything else. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Thanks for the laugh. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/153 "2009-05-26T22:40:36Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Face it, most of you men, we just don’t care what you think as much as you hope we do. Well there’s your mistake – _everyone_ cares, and it affects their perception of you, and thus has an impact on your success. It’s not just “You’d look hotter in that there miniskirt, little lady”. There’s a reason why CEOs and presidents are usually outside the norms in tallness, attractiveness, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/154 "2009-05-27T00:08:01Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Well there’s your mistake – _everyone_ cares, and it affects their perception of you, and thus has an impact on your success. It’s not just “You’d look hotter in that there miniskirt, little lady”. There’s a reason why CEOs and presidents are usually outside the norms in tallness, attractiveness, etc. I care to be dressed professionally and appropriately. I do not care what anyone thinks of my ass. Luckily, as you well know, it is delightfully illegal to discriminate in employment because you think a woman should “walk more femininely, talk more femininely, dress more femininely, wear make-up, have her hair styled, and wear jewelry.” [Price-Waterhouse v. Hopkins](http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=price%20waterhouse&url=/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0490_0228_ZO.html) I think it interesting that you have an assumption that I am dressed in a slovenly, inappropriate manner, because I do not care how you evaluate my body while I’m working. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/155 "2009-05-27T02:25:22Z")
I love checking out asses. Baggy, tight, loose, panty line and more are all intriguing and enjoyable in one way or other. At work however the ass is the least important part. You want to make eye contact because women are there to do a job, not make you horny. Unless you work at a strip club, or with **tdn**. In which case the pantsuit will be off shortly anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/156 "2009-05-27T03:28:36Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Really bad thing about “rights” other people have them too. They have a right to wear something which looks unprofessional and I have a right to say that I think its is. Anjd you know what, those who look unprofessional usually are just that. Male and female. The problem is the inherent sexist-piggery in conflating attractiveness with professionalism. If you were talking about women dressing sloppily, or in clothes that were not well-fitting, or in choices that were inappropriate for the workplace, I could get behind your argument. But you’re not. You’re saying that when women do not dress IYO attractively, thus IYO they are not professional. You said as much here: “if you can’t be bothered to make yourself look good, how the hell will you bother over clients?” As if their ability to convince you, personally, that they put sufficient effort into their appearance, somehow equates to the care with which they will serve the clients. As if their professionalism is subject to such superficial and facile evaluation, and as if you have any standing to sit in judgment of them in the first place anyway. Do you deplore the unattractiveness of your male colleagues? Do you consider their lack of success in personal appearance to be indicative of their professional abilities? I have no doubt you will answer with some variant of ‘yes, you do,’ but I also have no doubt the true answer is no, you don’t. Few men do, _especially_ not those who are too busy shitting on their female colleagues for failing to work up to their potential in the looks department. You’re correct: You have the right to register any opinion you choose. But opinions are like assholes: Everyone has one, many of them are not attractive, and sometimes its better not to put yours on public display. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/157 "2009-05-27T03:35:22Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Face it, most of you men, we just don’t care what you think as much as you hope we do. Oh sure. That’s why you spend so much money on cosmetics and time in front of the mirror. And that’s why you feel the need to cover up pasty and bruised legs. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/158 "2009-05-27T03:44:00Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Oh sure. That’s why you spend so much money on cosmetics and time in front of the mirror. > > And that’s why you feel the need to cover up pasty and bruised legs. I hate to burst your bubble, but on a daily basis, and especially in the work world, women don’t dress for men. They dress for the job, just like men do. I wear cosmetics to please myself. I apply them in front of a mirror to avoid poking my eyes out. When my legs are white, like now, I use self-tanner until I can achieve a decent tan, becaues _I_ don’t like how my white legs look. If you are my male colleague, your opinion of my appearance is irrelevant and unwelcome, unless you can advise me that I am making a serious personal faux pas such as spinach in the teeth. Barring that, frankly if I work with you I’d prefer it if you had no opinion of my appearance at all. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/159 "2009-05-27T03:47:33Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I think it interesting that you have an assumption that I am dressed in a slovenly, inappropriate manner, because I do not care how you evaluate my body while I’m working. Ok, I know that a little lady like you probably didn’t do so well at the reading, so let’s try this again, slowly. It is a _scientific fact_ that attractive people are _substantially_ better off. They make more money, they get more votes, they are more likely to win in a trial, and they are nearly twice as likely to get a job. Efran and Patterson 1976, Mack and Rainey 1990, Kurtzburg et. al. 1968, Kulka and Kessler 1978 Benson et. al. 1976, Chaiken 1979 etc. etc. etc. I don’t know how sloppily or well you dress or how much you care if I think you have a hot ass. What I _am_ saying is that _you should care_ about putting your best ass forward, as it were, because other people subconsciously think you are more valuable/qualified/smart/any positive trait. It might be a stupid game, but not playing isn’t going to accomplish anything. It’s not chauvinism, not sexist, not piggery, not anything but how people (both male and female) are programmed, and it’s been proven that it’s the same for women judging women, men judging women, women judging men, and men judging men. And probably trannies, too. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106/160 "2009-05-27T04:01:53Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > It is a _scientific fact_ that attractive people are _substantially_ better off. They make more money, they get more votes, they are more likely to win in a trial, and they are nearly twice as likely to get a job. Just because it’s true, doesn’t mean it’s right. Again, there is a difference between “professional” – clean, pressed, well put-together, not distracting, not inappropriate – and “pretty” or “attractive” as measured by such things as race, height, weight, regularity of features, and absence of disability. We may all initially think with our lizard brains, but we also reaonably may expect ourselves – and others – to literally look beyond “attractive” to things like “confident,” 'capable," “energetic,” or whatever. The idea that I or any other woman should be encouraged to put our “best ass forward” in 2009 is simply outrageous. “Not playing that game” doesn’t accomplish anything? Utter Bullshit. Every time a woman refuses to allow herself to be reduced to the attractiveness of the package she presents, she does a service to her entire gender, _and_ to people of all genders who might not deserve or appreciate being judged by such superficial criteria. We as women are where we are today because women in the 60s and 70s refused to play that game, and God bless them for it. YOU may be “programmed” that way, but hopefully with time and maybe a few sharp blows to the head, someday you’ll join the rest of us in living a life that overcomes such programming. In the mean time – the hell it isn’t chauvinism, sexism, and piggery. Until we’re dealing with a thread deploring how pantsuits look on men, that’s exactly what it is. And frankly, it surprises me. I feel like I’ve wandered into a thread from 1974. In my world, IRL, “men as sexist troglodytes” is an amusing stereotype redolent of gold medallions, satin open-neck shirts, and disco. I didn’t know you guys still existed. Was it cold as you thawed out in your time machine? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-pantsuits/497106.md?page=9)