# I pit people using rat poison unnecessarily. (Mercy killing of mouse) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615 "2012-07-08T18:42:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/81 "2012-07-09T15:53:26Z")
I study fruit flies, which is a very inefficient business. We inevitably end up breeding thousands more flies than we actually need, and all of the extras are disposed of, one way or another, either being dumped into ethanol or frozen to death. I can’t even estimate how many thousands I end up killing in an average week. The ones I actually use get dissected without anesthetic, though I do usually crush their heads before ripping open their abdomens and extracting the ovaries. No one ever seems to care about them. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/82 "2012-07-09T15:53:29Z")
No, not killing the geese myself…although in America they use ducks, but I digress. The point was that I am consistent…foie gras production is decried by animal rights activists as cruel. I don’t think it is…and I don’t really care. Same thing with getting rid of vermin. I use glue traps at my businesses. When I discover a trapped rat, if it is still alive, I kill it immediately. I don’t just throw the thing into the garbage to linger on to life for however long it takes the thing to die. You say its cruel. I say it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/83 "2012-07-09T15:56:34Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I study fruit flies, which is a very inefficient business. We inevitably end up breeding thousands more flies than we actually need, and all of the extras are disposed of, one way or another, either being dumped into ethanol or frozen to death. I can’t even estimate how many thousands I end up killing in an average week. The ones I actually use get dissected without anesthetic, though I do usually crush their heads before ripping open their abdomens and extracting the ovaries. > > No one ever seems to care about them. Their children do. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/84 "2012-07-09T15:59:28Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Exactly. And FTR, I eat and love foie gras and have zero qualms about it. I also _gasp_ throw living lobsters into boiling pots of water, killing them so I can eat them! > > I know, horrible. Just the other day I sprayed a hornet nest with bug killer. I am so mean. Actually, you are. You are lacking empathy, and you seem to take pleasure in unnecessary suffering. I don’t know why you seem to be so proud of that. ---
**Author:** ![Jules27](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@Jules27](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules27)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/85 "2012-07-09T16:01:25Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I hate animal cruelty as much as anyone (seriously-I’m a card carrying member of the Humane Society), but last night I watched a mouse die an agonizingly slow death…at the hands (paws) of my cat. We often wake up to a dead mouse or rat on the porch, but this was the first time I actually _witnessed_ the brutal, horrific torture. > > We were up late and as I walked by, I saw the cat on the back porch and opened the door to let her in. But then I realized she had a mouse and closed the door, but turned on the light to see what was happening. She had the mouse in her mouth and then let it down. The mouse, who appeared to be very young and small, looked terrified and then tried to make an escape under the grill. The cat pounced on it violently, then started biting it’s back leg. It was too much to watch, so I walked away. About an hour later, I decided to see what was going on…and watched as the mouse, with it’s back leg chewed off, tried to hobble away as the cat watched…only to be pounced on again. This went on for hours and eventually I went to bed. This morning, there was a dead mouse on the porch. > > After watching that violent bloodbath, I’m thinking that starvation or internal bleeding would be a better way to go. I genuinely have no idea which method of killing is worse, but being killed by a cat is far from humane, imo. It’s a cruel fucking world. Cats are moronic little fuzzballs though, that don’t have any sets of morals. They probably don’t understand the mouse is “living” and “suffers”. It’s just a toy to it. It’ll do the same thing to a toy mouse as it would a wild one, because it can’t see the distinction. But yeah, if it were my cat, I would have intervened and put the animal out of its misery. If can I stop the pain, I will. BTW, is your cat bored and overfed? Housecats don’t seem to have the ruthless efficiency that a wild cat would. That is, not wasting energy playing around it, but kill it then and there and gobble it up. ---
**Author:** ![Jules27](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@Jules27](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules27)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/86 "2012-07-09T16:04:20Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I study fruit flies, which is a very inefficient business. We inevitably end up breeding thousands more flies than we actually need, and all of the extras are disposed of, one way or another, either being dumped into ethanol or frozen to death. I can’t even estimate how many thousands I end up killing in an average week. The ones I actually use get dissected without anesthetic, though I do usually crush their heads before ripping open their abdomens and extracting the ovaries. > > No one ever seems to care about them. Because it’s the popular belief that insects do not feel pain. They don’t seem to learn anything from it, and display behaviour that’s contrary to something that can actually feel pain (ie. still having sex while being eaten alive, or eating something while cut in half for a dissection). I’m not really sure though. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/87 "2012-07-09T16:04:59Z")
> [@Jules27](#): > > Ok, I’ll gave you an[example](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100803212013.htm). Their names are mentioned. There are many more articles on this subject. Here is [another](http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/40/6/883.full), with links to other scientific journals. But, just like I say the sky is blue, I don’t need a scientific journal to know that an animal can feel pain, or can be frightened, or angry. A information in a lot of these articles are used in textbooks for students and academics, so they are most definitely peer reviewed and accepted. > > “Human-style” ? Since when does an animal have to be a human being to experience emotion? You claim that animals have no emotion, which is blatantly untrue - now you change the goal posts and say “human-style” ? They either have emotions or they don’t. Fear and anger are primal emotions that exist in all mammals, this is obvious and you don’t need a degree in animal behaviour to realise that. > > Why are you discounting pet owners? They would have hands-on experience, know how their pet behaves, know what it likes, etc. You’re just writing it off as “emotionally invested” because you’re afraid it will embarrass you. But you are doing a fine job of that already. > > Time to put your head out of the sand, and get into the 21st century. By the way, humans are technically animals too. Chimpanzees have definitely shown to possess emotions. I can list many more real life examples, and cite sources. I can’t even believe we’re having this discussion, in fact, I should ignore you because you’re obviously incredibly ignorant. Your own cites give you scant support. You treat this as a settled issue, but your cites are larded with equivocating words that are there to emphasize that the authors themselves consider this to be debatable material. Mostly, they seem to be re-tooling Skinner’s work and calling positive and negative responses emotions. Now, either provide some good strong evidence WRT fear and anger being universal mammalian emotions, or stop asserting it. Every time you do that, it makes you look that little bit more like a lunatic who thinks Dr. Dolittle was a documentary. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/88 "2012-07-09T16:07:38Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Your own cites give you scant support. You treat this as a settled issue, but your cites are larded with equivocating words that are there to emphasize that the authors themselves consider this to be debatable material. Mostly, they seem to be re-tooling Skinner’s work and calling positive and negative responses emotions. Now, either provide some good strong evidence WRT fear and anger being universal mammalian emotions, or stop asserting it. Every time you do that, it makes you look that little bit more like a lunatic who thinks Dr. Dolittle was a documentary. Eddie Murphy or Rex Harrison? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/89 "2012-07-09T16:09:27Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Actually, you are. You are lacking empathy, and you seem to take pleasure in unnecessary suffering. I don’t know why you seem to be so proud of that. No, I am not taking pleasure in suffering, nor am I proud of killing. I am having an adverse reaction to the thread participants that are going overboard in their desire to try to make sure we all know how to responsibly dispatch vermin, which given the attitudes of some, is surprising that it’s even allowable to them at all. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/90 "2012-07-09T16:12:38Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I hate animal cruelty as much as anyone (seriously-I’m a card carrying member of the Humane Society), but last night I watched a mouse die an agonizingly slow death…at the hands (paws) of my cat. We often wake up to a dead mouse or rat on the porch, but this was the first time I actually _witnessed_ the brutal, horrific torture. > > We were up late and as I walked by, I saw the cat on the back porch and opened the door to let her in. But then I realized she had a mouse and closed the door, but turned on the light to see what was happening. She had the mouse in her mouth and then let it down. The mouse, who appeared to be very young and small, looked terrified and then tried to make an escape under the grill. The cat pounced on it violently, then started biting it’s back leg. It was too much to watch, so I walked away. About an hour later, I decided to see what was going on…and watched as the mouse, with it’s back leg chewed off, tried to hobble away as the cat watched…only to be pounced on again. This went on for hours and eventually I went to bed. This morning, there was a dead mouse on the porch. the cat is too well fed. if the cat was hungry it would have been swallowed whole in 10 seconds. cats play with their food though eventually eat it if an outdoor cat. that is another reason pet doors are bad. they will bring in still live prey to play with. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/91 "2012-07-09T16:13:40Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Eddie Murphy or Rex Harrison? Rex Harrison. The absence of musical numbers in the Eddie Murphy version betrays it as no better than re-enactment. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/92 "2012-07-09T16:16:43Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Rex Harrison. The absence of musical numbers in the Eddie Murphy version betrays it as no better than re-enactment. Take _Party All The Time_ and substitute “My girl wants to” with “My cat wants to.” ---
**Author:** ![Jules27](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@Jules27](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules27)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/93 "2012-07-09T16:23:20Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Your own cites give you scant support. You treat this as a settled issue, but your cites are larded with equivocating words that are there to emphasize that the authors themselves consider this to be debatable material. Mostly, they seem to be re-tooling Skinner’s work and calling positive and negative responses emotions. Now, either provide some good strong evidence WRT fear and anger being universal mammalian emotions, or stop asserting it. Every time you do that, it makes you look that little bit more like a lunatic who thinks Dr. Dolittle was a documentary. Strong evidence? Ok, just observe the behaviour of a dog. Go and yell at the dog, make aggressive moves to it - preferably a small one. Watch its behaviour. Dogs certainly have fear, that is not debatable. Fear is an emotion, that is also not debatable. The only question with regards to the animals’ capacity to emotion is whether is it human-like, but you fail to acknowledge that emotions aren’t necessarily human exclusive traits. The best evidence is to see the reaction of a fucking animal in distress. That it might not think like a human being, or convey the same thoughts as a human being doesn’t mean shit - you said that they have no emotions, period. But the fact that researchers use rats in the testing of the effects of depression is more than proof enough - you can’t induce and test the effects of depression when the test subject has no emotion. You speak of animals as if they’re some kind of computer program, then ignore every piece of evidence because it doesn’t suit your outdated, bullshit mantra. Get a fucking clue. I’m not a lunatic for saying animals can feel and have emotion - it’s simple common sense talking here. Maybe you should observe and educate yourself with animal behaviour rather than talking shit. I’ll let someone else take the bite from you, preferably someone experienced with animal husbandry because you’re wasting my time. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/94 "2012-07-09T16:34:57Z")
You know, sport, that you simply declaring things non-debatable based on your engagingly childlike interpretations of animal behavior doesn’t make it so. I recognize that this is The Pit where most anything goes, but even here I think we draw the line at accepting the fantasies of retarded children as scientific fact. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/95 "2012-07-09T17:05:39Z")
> [@Jules27](#): > > Dogs certainly have fear, that is not debatable. Fear is an emotion, that is also not debatable. I think you’re confusing emotions with instincts. ---
**Author:** ![Jules27](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@Jules27](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules27)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/96 "2012-07-09T17:27:40Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You know, sport, that you simply declaring things non-debatable based on your engagingly childlike interpretations of animal behavior doesn’t make it so. I recognize that this is The Pit where most anything goes, but even here I think we draw the line at accepting the fantasies of retarded children as scientific fact. Here is my middle finger - go shove it. Your amazingly stupid comparison between a mammal and bacteria says enough about your contribution on this thread. While you’re at it, go and learn the fundamentals of animal behaviour. You’ve absolutely no shred of common sense, and are the last to talk about anything “childlike”, seeing you’re doing a great job of doing that yourself. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/97 "2012-07-09T17:45:29Z")
> [@Jules27](#): > > Here is my middle finger - go shove it. Your amazingly stupid comparison between a mammal and bacteria says enough about your contribution on this thread. While you’re at it, go and learn the fundamentals of animal behaviour. You’ve absolutely no shred of common sense, and are the last to talk about anything “childlike”, seeing you’re doing a great job of doing that yourself. Welcome to the Dope. How are you enjoying your first day here? Can we get you anything to make your stay more comfortable? I’d like to start by offering you a warm glass of SHUT THE FUCK UP. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/98 "2012-07-09T17:48:04Z")
Now, now, you know what the doctor said about being Mr. Angrypants. It’s unpleasant when you throw tantrums and bang your head against the wall over and over, but it doesn’t make you right. It only makes you purplish in the face and with more lumps on your head. My reference to a staph infection is what the kids in the regular classes learn is called an analogy. Maybe next year, your teacher will let you do more than coloring sheets and you’ll learn about them too. Wouldn’t that be swell? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/99 "2012-07-09T18:08:36Z")
Pardon me while I go fling my poo, er, mouse pellets. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615/100 "2012-07-09T18:11:19Z")
Snap traps can be cruel, too. We had a rat family living in the ceiling crawl spaces here at work. I set out two snap traps. One worked as expected, catching the guy right behind the ears. But the other caught another rat by the back end. The rat bled all over the place. I think it took hours for it to die. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-using-rat-poison-unnecessarily-mercy-killing-of-mouse/627615.md?page=6)