# I pit people who can't appreciate wildlife unless they can kill it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326 "2007-11-05T19:03:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/121 "2007-11-06T04:08:08Z")
What do you figured happened, **Q.E.D**? I submit to you that if a law was passed it is still in effect. I don’t notice right off the bat anything in that last link that say it supersedes and nullifies previous fish and game laws. But what do I know? I just think your blunt dismissal of **SmartAleq** ’s links was pretty ridiculous coming off as it did from a \<30 minute google hunt. eta: **Rubystreak** , there is no reason to think that this buck was “so mature”. It is a myth that deer can be aged from there rack size. IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/122 "2007-11-06T04:09:01Z")
[QUOTE=chela] I can get behind this OP. Guess what happened when a rare huge moth that was usually found in Central america was blown off course and ends up in the midwest USA. SOme hobbyist identifies it as rare and unique and then promptly captured and killed it for posterity. SO he could add it to his collection. The dweeb, I thought that was assholish of him to kill the thing just so he could mount it under glass. [/QUOTE] Would have made much more sense for the rare moth that was hundreds or thousands of miles away from any possibility of mating to be left alone, where it may have lived a few more days (maybe even weeks!) while it frantically tried to learn how to avoid predators in an enivronment that was pretty much the opposite of it’s normal habitat. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/123 "2007-11-06T04:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=chela] The dweeb, I thought that was assholish of him to kill the thing just so he could mount it under glass. [/QUOTE] What else could he have done with it? Let it go? It would have been dead in a few days anyway; I rather doubt its native Central American diet would be readily available in the midwestern US. And with its nearest mate several thousand miles away, passing on its genes was a moot point, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/124 "2007-11-06T04:10:39Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] He did say he was agreeing with the my argument in general, and only took issue with me calling the deer “sick.” If I’ve misread him, I am (as always) open to correction. [/QUOTE] No, you are correct, I basically agree with you. I think the albinism gene in general is detrimental when expressed. Since it is recessive it’s not a bad idea to eliminate it when it appears in homozygous individuals. I thought your use of the word “sick” was distracting the discussion a bit, since it implies that the animal was likely to die on its own. Better to stick to “defective.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/125 "2007-11-06T04:19:57Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] Doesn’t the fact that this buck was so mature indicate that he was quite fit in all the ways that count? [/quote] No. His survival was probably due to the fact that the normal predators weren’t around. Under normal conditions he would never have reached adulthood. > [@](#): > > Would you cull a perfectly healthy, successful buck just because it was white? From a conservation angle? Absolutely. Best to get the defective genes out of the population as much as possible. > [@](#): > > The albinism is a defect but it might be outweighed by other positive qualities of various kinds that this animal had that helped him survive that long, no? Possibly, but unless he’s the only individual in the population with those positive qualities I don’t see any reason not to cull him. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/126 "2007-11-06T04:26:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Best to get the defective genes out of the population as much as possible. > … unless he’s the only individual in the population with those positive qualities I don’t see any reason not to cull him. You know who else thought like that? Hitler. I kid! ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/127 "2007-11-06T04:34:56Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] No. His survival was probably due to the fact that the normal predators weren’t around. Under normal conditions he would never have reached adulthood. [/quote] How can that be true? Would _never_ have reached adulthood? I simply can’t believe that, considering that there are myths in several indigenous cultures (Chickasaw, Dakota are the ones I found in a quick search) about white deer being sacred, albino skins being used in dances, etc. Some of them must have reached adulthood. I’d think a deer who could overcome the defect of albinism to thrive into mature, breeding adulthood must be rather above average in other ways to compensate, and who knows what you’d be taking out of the gene pool by killing him in his prime? Culling him might be the right thing to do, and it might not be. I’m not sure there’s a right answer here, because apparently some F&WS people thought the albino deer were worth protecting. In any case, humans don’t know everything and their decisions about how to manage wildlife have therefore not always been smashingly successful. I wish we could just leave it to the professionals (aka, the animals’ natural predators). Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/128 "2007-11-06T04:47:45Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] How can that be true? Would _never_ have reached adulthood? I simply can’t believe that, considering that there are myths in several indigenous cultures (Chickasaw, Dakota are the ones I found in a quick search) about white deer being sacred, albino skins being used in dances, etc. Some of them must have reached adulthood. [/quote] Ok, very rarely reach adulthood, if you must nitpick. > [@](#): > > I’d think a deer who could overcome the defect of albinism to thrive into mature, breeding adulthood must be rather above average in other ways to compensate, and who knows what you’d be taking out of the gene pool by killing him in his prime? Culling him might be the right thing to do, and it might not be. I’m not sure there’s a right answer here, because apparently some F&WS people thought the albino deer were worth protecting. In any case, humans don’t know everything and their decisions about how to manage wildlife have therefore not always been smashingly successful. I wish we could just leave it to the professionals (aka, the animals’ natural predators). Ah well. Even without the other detrimental effects of albinism, the trait makes the animal more visible to predators. Even if the animal has some positive traits, since it is double recessive it will pass at least on the recessive gene to all its offspring. If it mates with a female with the recessive gene, half of their offspring will be albinos and under natural conditions much more vulnerable to predation. If any of its offspring mate with other individuals with the recessive gene, they also have a higher probability of being albinos and being predated. We know very well that under natural conditions that the albino trait is detrimental exactly because it is so rare. Your speculation that this individual might have some positive traits to outweigh this is just that, speculation. Deer populations with a high rate of albinism have it so because they are living under highly artificial conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/129 "2007-11-06T05:28:37Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Money hardly makes one a conservationist when one is killing what one claims to be “conserving”. Especially since hunters generally make a point of going after the most impressive animals, which means that for millenia they’ve been selectively breeding wild animals to be smaller, uglier, and more sickly. They didn’t intend to, but that’s what they’ve been doing. And unlike the OP, I **would** ban hunting. Get your meat at the supermarket, from the animals that have been bred and raised for that purpose. [/QUOTE] I have been trying to wrap my mind around this since I read it this afternoon. How is buying meat at a supermarket a morally superior choice? Does it give you some type of to ability to deny that you were responsible for the death of an animal? Frankly to my mind, it rates up there with a vegetarian wearing a leather coat, and telling me I am evil for eating meat. (My response is always: Nice coat, did the cow leave to you in her will?) FTR, I am not a hunter, but I have no beef with hunters. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/130 "2007-11-06T06:10:19Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] Other hunters even make things much more difficult on themselves by choosing a bow and arrow or a black power waepon. [/QUOTE] I can certainly appreciate the extra degree of difficulty in shooting while keeping one gloved fist in the air, but is that really respecting the basics of gun safety? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/131 "2007-11-06T08:26:46Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] So what you’re saying is there is no right or wrong, or good or bad and furthermore, it’s pointless to discuss such things? [/QUOTE] No. Where the heck did that come from? I’m saying that > [@](#): > > Humanity is part of nature. There is no dichotomy. Humans are exactly as natural as anything else in the world. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever unnatural about humanity. Anything that a human does is as natural as anything any other animal does. I guess the first nine words really sum it up. The rest was just for emphasis. I see nothing about right or wrong, or the pointlessness of dialogue. Can you point out where you see it? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/132 "2007-11-06T11:41:14Z")
> [@](#): > > **Miller** said: > Next mating season, it gets with a doe, and has a litter of albino fauns. (I know, this is pretty unlikely because albinism is recessive etc. Just roll with it for now.) It’s also unlikely because deer don’t have litters. Most of the time they have singletons, with the occasional set of twins. There’s no way that a doe is going to have four fawns at once. Triplets would be extremely rare. Also, ‘fauns’ are fictional creatures from _The Chronicles of Narnia_, not baby deer. Baby deer are either called fawns or calves. Do you know much of anything about deer? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/133 "2007-11-06T12:00:38Z")
Fauns predate _Narnia_ by a long time, but you’re broadly speaking right. What the heck, an albino buck isn’t fit to survive, so waste it, already. Similarly, if you stumble across an Asiatic lion or a mountain gorilla, burn it - the fact that there are hardly any left is evidence that it needs a dose of evolution in action. Also you get to exhibit a really rare animal head on your wall. When albino-deer hunting is made a crime, only criminals will hunt albino deer. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/134 "2007-11-06T12:42:56Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Similarly, if you stumble across an Asiatic lion or a mountain gorilla, burn it - the fact that there are hardly any left is evidence that it needs a dose of evolution in action. . [/QUOTE] The overall rarity of albino deer has nothing to do with their decline as a species, they aren’t a species but a genetic defect in an increadibly overpopulated species. Also, if I were to come across an Asiatic lion while out hunting in the woods of Minnesota you can bet that I’m shooting the damned thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/135 "2007-11-06T14:12:59Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] It is a myth that deer can be aged from there rack size. IIRC. [/QUOTE] : tries to think up joke about age vs. rack size : : decides he hasn’t had enough coffee yet : ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/136 "2007-11-06T14:39:48Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Ok, very rarely reach adulthood, if you must nitpick. [/quote] It’s not a nitpick. Albinic deer are very rarely occurring naturally, and the ones who make it to mature adulthood are rarer still. However, some do survive and succeed, and they did so even when natural predators were still active and thriving. I cite indigenous myths about albino animals such as deer, buffalo, etc. and the use of albino animal skins in ritual. There must have been enough to cause them to be noted repeatedly in folklore and incorporated into the culture. This idea that they never survived, and only could or would under artificial circumstances, is not supported by evidence. > [@](#): > > Even without the other detrimental effects of albinism, the trait makes the animal more visible to predators. Then let the predators sort it out, eh? If possible. There are [active wolf populations in Minnesota](http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/wolves/index.html), where the OP’s story took place. In fact, in Mille Lacs County, where the deer was shot, there are [wolves](http://www.silentsports.net/a_long_day_s_journey_on_the_ru.html) living in the Mille Lacs Wildlife Management Area and the Rum River State Forest. The wolves’ primary diet is of deer. Your contention that this deer was living in an artificially protected, safe environment might be true, but seems less likely in Minnesota, which has the largest wolf population in the lower 48, and in that county particularly. > [@](#): > > We know very well that under natural conditions that the albino trait is detrimental exactly because it is so rare. Your speculation that this individual might have some positive traits to outweigh this is just that, speculation. Deer populations with a high rate of albinism have it so because they are living under highly artificial conditions. Are they living under highly artificial conditions? Cite? I think MN is about as “natural” a habitat as you’re going to find in the CONUS. Of course I’m speculating about this deer’s fitness, though I do have one very compelling piece of evidence: the deer’s survival to adulthood, esp. when there are wolves around. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/137 "2007-11-06T14:45:46Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] Then let the predators sort it out, eh? If possible. [/QUOTE] I think that’s pretty much what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/138 "2007-11-06T15:50:32Z")
[QUOTE=amarone] Are we supposed to be impressed by that? Bow-hunting is certainly more difficult, and the result is many more animals suffering from non-lethal injuries or those that cause a slow death. Because of this, bow-hunting is illegal in many countries that allow hunting with rifles. While I don’t like any form of recreational hunting, if you must do it at least choose an efficient weapon that minimizes suffering. [/QUOTE] **Amarone,** you’re at it again. Let’s refresh your memory from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=439471): You dropped out of that thread without a reply, so here’s another opportunity to back up your statements in that thread and this one. > [@Ivorybill](#): > > Perhaps if you wish to learn more about bow hunting’s environmental impacts, you could direct your browser to [this study](http://www.bagjakt.org/study_eng.htm), which states: > > (1) “Hunting with bow and arrow is practiced in a majority of the nations of the world.” > > (2) “Regarding the capacity to harvest middle-large class 1 game, the efficiency of the bow and arrow is fully comparable to the hunting tools presently permitted today.” > > (3) “Toxic impact on the environment is non-existent. All projectiles except one were recovered during the study and these can generally be reused. Modern arrows are manufactured of aluminum, which is one of the earth’s most common elements, as well as carbon fiber. Hunting arrowheads are generally made of aluminum and steel.” There’s no lead, in other words, to poison other creatures. > > (4) “No other hunting form accepted today that has been scientifically studied has yielded a lower wounding frequency.” > > Or [this site](http://mdc.mo.gov/news/out/1997/out0124.html), which summarizes a study that proved that “87 percent of deer hit by bow hunters were recovered.” This study has received a great deal of positive and negative attention, but my professional opinion (BS in Natural Resources, MS in Forest Ecology, Ph.D. in Forest Policy; work experience with The Nature Conservancy and with the US Forest Service; years spent hunting) the numbers generated fit with my experience. > > I live in the city now and don’t get to hunt like I used to, but let me share with you this personal anecdote: of the many hunters I’ve known over the years, every single one has consistently expressed sincere interest in (1) not wounding game, (2) not losing game, and (3) not causing undue or unnecessary suffering to game. Also, in my experience, bow hunters are among the most diligent hunters, since they have to get to within 20 to 30 yards of an animal for an effective shot. Compare this with rifle hunters who may take low percentage shots in excess of 100 yards. > > Finally, IMHO, even in the absence of man, nature is cruel. Cougars kill deer. Coyotes kill fawns. Wolves hunt down sick or inured animals. Brown bears take advantage of opportunities to kill other animals when they can. Not a single one of those carnivores is worried about reducing the potential pain or suffering their act of killing will cause. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/139 "2007-11-06T16:00:05Z")
[QUOTE=lalenin] I think that’s pretty much what happened. [/QUOTE] First of all, talk of “culling the herd” of a perfectly viable animal for the goal of getting rid of a genetic anomaly is not the same as natural predation. Wolves don’t care if the deer is white or not, or what the albino gene is theoretically going to do to the species. They only care that they can catch it and eat it. If they can, it dies. If they can’t (and in this situation it seems they didn’t), it survives and breeds. Trophy hunting for the biggest, best developed, and most unique animals for bragging rights is also not the way of natural predation. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326/140 "2007-11-06T16:14:11Z")
Never mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-cant-appreciate-wildlife-unless-they-can-kill-it/425326.md?page=8)