# I pit people who don't pay attention to their kids at the grocery store **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881 "2012-10-06T05:54:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/81 "2012-10-09T18:21:24Z")
Where do people like **ZPG Zealot** and **Naive Evian** get the idea that love and discipline are mutually exclusive? ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/82 "2012-10-09T18:24:43Z")
About 3/4 of the way through page 1, I decided that I would share a pleasant/amusing anecdote from the weekend. But whoooo, this thread got ugly. What the hell, here you are: I was at a ‘punkin patch’ with the little guy, and saw a sign that said “Children found unattended will be given kittens to take home.” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/83 "2012-10-09T18:26:05Z")
“Unattended Children will be given a shot of espresso, and a puppy” ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/84 "2012-10-09T18:29:28Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Where do people like **ZPG Zealot** and **Naive Evian** get the idea that love and discipline are mutually exclusive? From being around modern parents and their kids? ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/85 "2012-10-09T18:52:22Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > From being around modern parents and their kids? And the notion of unconditional love is less than a decade old, is it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/86 "2012-10-09T18:55:57Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Where do people like **ZPG Zealot** and **Naive Evian** get the idea that love and discipline are mutually exclusive? I don’t consider love and discipline to be mutually exclusive, only that between the two, discipline is more important. Also, far too many people seem to think that any degree of constraining or correcting a child is evidence of lack of love. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/87 "2012-10-09T19:04:49Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Also, far too many people seem to think that any degree of constraining or correcting a child is evidence of lack of love. [Including you, apparently.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12029981&postcount=420) > [@](#): > > I wasn’t going to mention this post, but someone else brought it up and quite frankly that idea that children desire unconditional love sounds like the beginning of civilization’s downfall. You are not raising a child when you give him or her unconditional love. you are creating a sociopath. No wonder the world seems to be filled with bratty children. Children need discipline. They are born one giant, screaming Id with no consideration or idea that other peope even exist. Raising a child means teaching them about civilized behavior, reciprocity, trying to help them develop empathy, etc., not giving them unconditional love. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/88 "2012-10-09T19:15:45Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > I reckon **Naive Evian** is the love-child that eventuated from the threesome between\*\* curlcoat\*\*, **ZPGzealot** and **Idi Amin**. > > Running a book…odds currently 2-1. 😃 You were right earlier - you are just naturally an asshole. Also, a troll. > [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Where do people like **ZPG Zealot** and **Naive Evian** get the idea that love and discipline are mutually exclusive? From the hundreds of thousands of parents and child raising “experts” that claim one cannot discipline a child with love. That one must be one’s child’s best friend and not their parent. Etc. The proof that such ideas don’t work is in all of the kids (and adults!) around us now who have no self control, no boundaries and no idea that other people count. **Cheesesteak** appears to be on her way to raising one. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/89 "2012-10-09T19:29:14Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > **Cheesesteak** appears to be on her way to raising one. I’m a man. That doesn’t mean I can’t want to have your babies, and raise them to be self loathing sociopaths. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/90 "2012-10-09T19:30:25Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > From the hundreds of thousands of parents and child raising “experts” that claim one cannot discipline a child with love. That one must be one’s child’s best friend and not their parent. Etc. The proof that such ideas don’t work is in all of the kids (and adults!) around us now who have no self control, no boundaries and no idea that other people count. **Cheesesteak** appears to be on her way to raising one. Cite that there are “hundreds of thousands…of child-raising ‘experts’” that claim this? What little I’ve personally seen on the subject is exactly the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/91 "2012-10-09T19:35:39Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > [Including you, apparently.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12029981&postcount=420) Let’s look at this quote. “I wasn’t going to mention this post, but someone else brought it up and quite frankly that idea that children desire unconditional love sounds like the beginning of civilization’s downfall. You are not raising a child when you give him or her unconditional love. you are creating a sociopath. No wonder the world seems to be filled with bratty children. Children need discipline. They are born one giant, screaming Id with no consideration or idea that other peope even exist. Raising a child means teaching them about civilized behavior, reciprocity, trying to help them develop empathy, etc., not giving them unconditional love.” Do you see anything in there that says loving a child is incompatible with disciplining the child? Perhaps, if you think the only kind of love that exists is unconditional love (a condition far too belief with those who raise little monsters rather than functioning adults). ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/92 "2012-10-09T19:35:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Attitudes like that are why so many children are little beasts. Love isn’t really important to raising a responsible human being. Self-discipline is. And let’s not forget to add teaching them to scam people out of money through “fortune telling” to that list of important traits! ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/93 "2012-10-09T19:40:59Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > And let’s not forget to add teaching them to scam people out of money through “fortune telling” to that list of important traits! It is certainly not a scam to bill someone for the time spent researching and formulating an opinion. The true scam artists would be anyone expecting a total stranger to do that for free. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/94 "2012-10-09T19:41:06Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Do you see anything in there that says loving a child is incompatible with disciplining the child? Perhaps, if you think the only kind of love that exists is unconditional love (a condition far too belief with those who raise little monsters rather than functioning adults). “Raising a child means teaching them about civilized behavior, reciprocity, trying to help them develop empathy, etc., **not** giving them unconditional love.” My emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/95 "2012-10-09T19:42:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It is certainly not a scam to bill someone for the time spent researching and formulating an opinion. The true scam artists would be anyone expecting a total stranger to do that for free. Wow, way to deflect the point from what you actually said: _ **“Love isn’t really important to raising a responsible human being. Self-discipline is.”** _ ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/96 "2012-10-09T19:47:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m a man. That doesn’t mean I can’t want to have your babies, and raise them to be self loathing sociopaths. Well, it sounds like you are already working on that with the one you have. Sorry I touched a nerve there, but do note that I am not the only one here to point out that you are not doing well at teaching your child to interact politely with others. > [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Cite that there are “hundreds of thousands…of child-raising ‘experts’” that claim this? What little I’ve personally seen on the subject is exactly the opposite. That was bad phrasing on my part - it’s hundreds of thousands of parents, and those child raising “experts” who push being your child’s friend, etc. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/97 "2012-10-09T19:49:11Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > _ **“Love isn’t really important to raising a responsible human being. Self-discipline is.”** _ Which is my point exactly. Love isn’t necessary for raising a child. It can happen. Some would argue that it is even a good thing when it does. Some good child raisers often cite love as a reason they discipline their children. But love is not ultimately necessary like discipline and education. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/98 "2012-10-09T19:49:38Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > That was bad phrasing on my part - it’s hundreds of thousands of parents, and those child raising “experts” who push being your child’s friend, etc. Fair enough, but who are these “experts”? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/99 "2012-10-09T19:50:46Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > “Raising a child means teaching them about civilized behavior, reciprocity, trying to help them develop empathy, etc., **not** giving them unconditional love.” > > My emphasis. Let me guess, you think unconditional love is the only kind there is? ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881/100 "2012-10-09T19:51:22Z")
ZPG, since you apparently need it spelled out for you: **loving your child unconditionally is not a problem UNELSS you believe that you cannot love your child and discipline your child at the same time.** _That_ is why I counted you among those who “seem to think that any degree of constraining or correcting a child is evidence of lack of love.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-dont-pay-attention-to-their-kids-at-the-grocery-store/636881.md?page=6)