# I pit people who hate metal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 1, 2011, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944 "2011-06-01T10:46:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/1 "2011-06-01T10:46:44Z")
> [@Naxos Is From An Alternate Universe](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/150): > > haha… I’m still reading the thread, but your objection to my distaste of metal was funny. > > Come on now, metal is trash for 14 year-olds. There’s Mountain and then there’s Deep Purple and a few Black Sabbath tunes, the rest is pure trash. > > 🙂 Err… This isn’t quite what you said earlier. > [@Naxos Is From An Alternate Universe](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/16): > > First of all, metal sucks and it’s not music. “It’s not music”. Bold claims. I could easily dismantle this assertion by pointing to Power/Progressive Metal (Nightwish, Rhapsody, Blind Guardian, and Dream Theater are masterful songwriters, composers, and virtuosos), but I figure you don’t mean bands that are [“musical”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH4HIn5Pfvg) but still somehow classified in the same overcategory as extreme metal… No, you mean [these guys](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oey85FGHOHc). First of all, lemme get this straight. This isn’t directed only at Naxos, nor is it directed at people who simply don’t like metal as a genre-disliking metal is a perfectly legitimate stance, like disliking anime or disliking pop music (i.e. you’re kind of being stupid because saying “I don’t like metal/pop/anime” entails the dislike of so many different things that the claim is kind of hard to make; you may hate modern pop like Justin Bieber, but I bet I’d find a soft spot for some of Michael Jackson’s repertoire). No, this is directed at people who _do not think metal is music_. Why rant at them? Because they are wrong and stupid. This is a little essay I picked up from a friend of mine. I’m going to add to it the case study of the song above, “Slaves shall serve”, which is one of the more brutal songs I personally enjoy. > [@](#): > > **1) The “It’s just noise / It’s devoid of melody” argument** > > There is melody in metal music; that’s one of the things that makes music, music. Melody is especially apparent in the less brutal or atonal forms of extreme metal, like black metal and melodic death metal. The problem here, is that metal is simply one of the most abrasive and unfriendly-to-the-ear genres in music: naturally, there will be people with a higher tolerance to louder, harsher sounds, and there will be people with a smaller margin of tolerance. > > But at the risk of sounding like an elitist, I’d argue that this isn’t the fault of the genre, but the fault of the listener: one of the things that sets metal music apart from other genres is its disregard for the mainstream, and the standards other genres hold. One cannot simply expect a metal band to sacrifice artistic integrity, or water down their sound to make it more digestible for an “average” music listener. To go back to Slaves Shall Serve, I hope I don’t have to spell out the melodic and harmonic elements. They’re slightly mitigated, but they’re still very much present, underlaying the song’s raw core with a creepy, frightening melody. > [@](#): > > **2) The “The vocalist is just screaming… screaming takes no talent” argument** > > This point is wrong, for many reasons. For one, screaming in metal serves a purpose: metal is not a genre that is based around creating short, catchy songs one can dance to, like many other genres out there. Metal is a genre that focuses on creating a specific mood, a specific atmosphere, and holding that for a whole album. > > And that’s where harsh vocals (also called guttural or screamed vocals) come in. Screamed vocals are meant to further the harsh atmosphere of a metal album. Anyone can scream, sure, but in order to produce a convincing black metal shriek or death metal growl, it takes a lot of straining and control over one’s voice, lest the singing come out sounding wheezed, forced, and lacking in emotion. Try to bring out that roar Nergal (the singer)'s voice. Even if you _can_ pull it off for a short time without it sounding forced/emotionless, try doing it for the whole song. Now imagine singing like that for a 2-hour-long double set, and you see what the problem here is. > [@](#): > > **3) The generalization that the lyrics only talk about and promote things like murder, gore, satanism, etc.** > > Again, this is untrue, and is a generalization about the genre. Those are indeed lyrical themes in metal, but for every band that discusses topics like gore and Satanism, there’s a band that discusses other topics. The lyrical themes vary from subgenre to subgenre: in death metal, recurring lyrical themes are death, gore, occultism, opposition to religion, misanthropy, social commentary, etc; for black metal, misanthropy and opposition to religion are also common themes, but lyrics can travel a more “magical” path as well, with topics such as folklore, fantasy, and mythology. > > (I had a lyrics sheet that I passed around the class after reading. The songs I’d chose were Dark World Burden by Novembers Doom, Funeral Fog by Mayhem, At the Heart of Winter by Immortal, and Sculpting the Throne ov Seth by Behemoth) Father ov Terror! Abu ol-Hol enter the pylon thru’ the galleys ov past catacombs ov night into the starry womb slay, slay! Asar un-Nefer we have no fear our time had come our will is done dance, dance! O Mighty One in the fields ov Aqert and spit upon slaves ov death War God! trample all weakness this is your day ov pride draw Thy flaming sword cut the umbilical cord to set me free from eternal sleep… …step by step evolution; spiral vibration can you hear? can you touch? can you see? can you really see? we charm all jins - automata, inprinted realities they creep like snakes and all we feel is painful bliss as we burn forth like winged globe like solar disk… …and penetrate eternity Slaves shall serve! Slaves shall serve! Slaves shall serve! Slaves shall serve! …Now tell me that that isn’t more meaningful and poetic than some castrato singing about their “baby, baby, baby baby baby ooh”… > [@](#): > > 1. The argument that “it takes no skill to play an instrument in extreme metal” > > A lot of people think of metal as nothing more than mindless instrument bashing: this assumption is untrue. If one actually took the time to listen to the genre, they would see that there is actually a high level of complexity and skill to the genre. > > For instance, consider the drums, an instrument integral to any metal band. Metal boasts some of the fastest and most technical drummers out there. Zbigniew “Inferno” Promi?ski, the drummer from Polish death metal band Behemoth, is capable of approaching speeds of up to 260 BPM during sessions. Flo Mounier from Cryptopsy writes his songs with incredibly complex drum arrangements, with such intricacies as a blend of jazz into his own form of metal. > > The guitar work in extreme metal is also very difficult to perform: even in black metal, generally regarded as one of the simpler forms of metal to play, guitar-playing requires much physical dexterity, as the genre contains many (sometimes high-pitched) tremolo-picked melodies. > > There’s also the fact that many extreme metal guitarists borrow much from classical music in their playing, such as in melodies and scales. For example, Alexi Laiho from Children of Bodom worked classical influences into his earlier songs: the intro of the song “Red Light in My Eyes Pt. II”, was borrowed from Mozart’s “Symphony #25”. I don’t really think I need to go too far in to this. “Inferno” is the drummer in that video clip, and there are probably less than 100 drummers in the world who can play that song at that speed. But if that didn’t convince you… [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jTzzc1dXGsU/hqdefault.jpg ""Inferno" Drum Solo - Behemoth") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTzzc1dXGsU) Same drummer. Live show. > [@](#): > > 1. The argument that “the songs are too long / why isn’t there any singing in this song?” (long songs and instrumentals are traits common to progressive metal) > > As mentioned before, the general aesthetics of metal are different from those of other genres; compositions don’t generally follow an easily noticable pattern, and rarely follow a typical verse-chorus-verse-chorus structure. > > While there are many bands—namely black metal bands, which take a minimalist approach to their songwriting, writing songs that focus on mood and atmosphere rather than highlighting the composition itself—death and thrash metal bands generally pride themselves on the creation of songs that have incredibly complex or technical song structures, with numerous solos a known standard. Songs can change time signatures frequently, sometimes more than once in a single song. > > Instrumentals are another trait that’s common in metal: unlike other genres such as pop or country, where vocals and lyrics are typically the main focus of the song, metal is a genre more focused on the instrumental aspect of each song; the vocals usually take a backseat, and are used merely as another rhythm instrument. Because of this, it’s not uncommon for songs to lack vocals altogether. Doesn’t really apply here… > [@](#): > > 1. The “Why does the music have to sound so dark? Why can’t it sound happy?” argument > > If all music were to sound happy, music as an artform, would be no more. The wide range of emotions is one of the things that makes metal (and other genres, such as classical and dark ambient) such a diverse and rewarding genre to listen to; there’s not just a dichotomy of happy and sad, there’s metal that represents pretty near every emotion; negative ones such as: > > ``` > Anger and brutality, which are common to death metal, brutal death metal, and thrash. > Contempt, hatred, and depression, all of which are common to black metal, a genre that prides itself on cold, grim, and misanthropic themes. > Anxiety and fear, which are common to doom metal, a genre based on creating a sense of impending doom for the listener. > > ``` > > There is metal that represents positive emotions as well, although they generally don’t fall under the “extreme metal” banner; namely power metal, folk metal, and Viking metal, all of which typically include fast, but upbeat, styles of play. They typically give a sense of joy, exhilaration, and pride. That song… When I first heard it, I felt locked up. I was literally marching in lockstep to the beat, and for one of the few times in my life, I thought I felt a higher power over me… One named “Nergal”. This song, like a few others this band has produced, has a truly profound effect on my emotions when I hear it. It’s just amazingly powerful. And after all, isn’t that what music is all about? Using rhythm, melody, and words to create a powerful imagery, or at least some emotions? When I listen to a song like Slaves Shall Serve or Daimonos (also from Behemoth) I can see it immediately; the court of some profane, ancient god, the hedonistic lustfulness all around, the slaves bowing on their knees before their masters… It is incredibly powerful. Now does this mean that _all_ metal is good? Or even that I like all metal? No. In a genre that can go from [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK3B5qFst3g) to [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oey85FGHOHc) to [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYn47sYt6vM), there’s an _incredible_ amount of variety, some good (the aforementioned 3), some bad (Deathcore… blech), but either way, there’s something for everyone. So you know what? I take it back. I _do_ pit people who hate metal, because it’s like hating video games, or hating books. You’re going to find _something_ in the genre you like, because it’s so damn huge. And those who think metal is not music… Well, you my friends may burn in [hell](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY5WEJ-tiC8) for as long as you see fit to continue that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/2 "2011-06-01T10:55:30Z")
I’m a metal fan, but Cookie Monster vocals are fucking dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/3 "2011-06-01T11:17:45Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I’m a metal fan, but Cookie Monster vocals are fucking dumb. +1. The only emotional responses CM vocals elicit from me are derision and laughter. Give me James Hetfield any day. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/4 "2011-06-01T11:18:38Z")
The lyrics you posted don’t really help your case. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/5 "2011-06-01T11:25:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So you know what? I take it back. I _do_ pit people who hate metal, because it’s like hating video games, or hating books. You’re going to find _something_ in the genre you like, because it’s so damn huge. And those who think metal is not music… Well, you my friends may burn in [hell](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY5WEJ-tiC8) for as long as you see fit to continue that opinion. Crackle, crackle, crackle. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/6 "2011-06-01T11:33:04Z")
[QUOTE=Budget Player Cadet] Father ov Terror! Abu ol-Hol enter the pylon thru’ the galleys ov past catacombs ov night into the starry womb … [/quote] lol Sounds like something a 13 year old wanting to shock his parents would listen to. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/7 "2011-06-01T11:37:31Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I’m a metal fan, but Cookie Monster vocals are fucking dumb. I find it helps if you think of the vocals as just another instrument, and try not to make sense of the words as much as follow the rhythm of it. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/8 "2011-06-01T11:41:02Z")
Shiny happy people laughing Meet me in the crowd People people Throw your love around Love me love me Take it into town Happy happy Put it in the ground Where the flowers grow Gold and silver shine ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/9 "2011-06-01T11:44:07Z")
**Budget Player Cadet** , what sort of keyboard do you have? I need to get a similar one that doesn’t wear out. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/10 "2011-06-01T11:56:49Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > **Budget Player Cadet** , what sort of keyboard do you have? I need to get a similar one that doesn’t wear out. Hmm, my posts _are_ kinda long, aren’t they… You think this is bad though, you should see my posting on Smash World Forums. I’ve become _legendary_ for my Wall of Text rants on that site. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > lol > > Sounds like something a 13 year old wanting to shock his parents would listen to. … "I the Sun ov man The offspring ov the stellar race My halo fallen and crushed upon the earth That I may bring balance to this world I son ov perdition From sheer nothingness transgressed Unto the highest self – to utmost freedom To explore the starry nature ov my rage" :rolleyes: I mean, what lyrics do _you_ listen to that are so much better? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/11 "2011-06-01T11:57:54Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I’m a metal fan, but Cookie Monster vocals are fucking dumb. All this deserves in response is “no they’re not”. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > The lyrics you posted don’t really help your case. Quite true. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/12 "2011-06-01T12:02:17Z")
One of the insults I have for certain genres of things (anything to do with orcs, Vikings, catacombs, penny-dreadful fantasy fiction and all that shit) is “it’s a bit _metal_”. I also think that many of the arguments your friend set up to answer are straw men. Of course it takes skill to play an instrument in a metal band. Of course there’s melody buried in there. Of course the lyrics don’t all promote satanism. Cookie Monster vocals are just screaming. But the one question your friend put forward that isn’t a straw man only merely touched on my objection to it, “it’s just noise” misspells the words “unlistenable shit”. > [@](#): > > we charm all jins - > automata, inprinted realities > they creep like snakes > and all we feel > is painful bliss > as we burn forth > like winged globe > like solar disk… > …and penetrate eternity You have got to be taking the piss. It’s a bit _metal_. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/13 "2011-06-01T12:03:05Z")
Love you yes I love ya yes I love my coo ca choo Want you yes I want ya yes I - I really do want you Tom Cat! Y’ know where it’s at! Come on ! Let’s go to my flat Lay down 'n groove on the mat Ah- they don’t have lyrics like that anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/14 "2011-06-01T12:06:20Z")
I don’t hate metal, it can be very useful. I mean, the other day, I was working on a broken lawn mower engine and it turned out it had a plastic pinion on the starter motor. Who the hell thought that was a good idea? Busted right in two. Replaced it with an older starter motor with a metal gear and all was well. Metal is good. Plastic now, plastic is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/15 "2011-06-01T12:07:47Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I mean, what lyrics do _you_ listen to that are so much better? “There’s a house with a garden, in the squats and low-rise, of a town with no future, but that’s where my future lies.” I’m certainly not going to argue that metal isn’t music; I’ve even heard some I kind of like. I like musicians who do nice things with words, and your posted lyrics certainly don’t fit that case. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/16 "2011-06-01T12:15:07Z")
Do you berate us as well? Just what is the future? The things we’ve done and said. Let’s just push the button. We’d be better off dead! Cause’ I hate you! and I berate you! and I can’t wait to get to you… The sins of all the fathers, being dumped on us - the sons The only choice we’re given is: “How many megatons?” So I eschew you! and I say “SCREW YOU”! and I hope you’re blue too! … ---
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/17 "2011-06-01T12:16:59Z")
TL;DR However, yesterday I found a kickass heavy metal cover of Kesha’s “TiK ToK” on youtube. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/18 "2011-06-01T12:26:23Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Father ov Terror! > thru’ the galleys ov past > catacombs ov night > in the fields ov Aqert > upon slaves ov death > this is your day ov pride Why can’t they spell “of”? ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/19 "2011-06-01T12:30:52Z")
F’s make the baby Jesus cry. Which, while we’re on the subject, also explains grade inflation. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944/20 "2011-06-01T12:36:01Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > The lyrics you posted don’t really help your case. The _post_ he posted didn’t help his case. I’m sympathetic to the OP’s position, but he comes across like a whiny teenager trying to tell all his friends why his favorite music Is Really Cool No Really Guys. Of course it’s also true that 95% of everything is crap, which means that vast majority of metal is little more than “I’m angry so I’m going to be loud”. Not that any other genre does any better, of course. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-hate-metal/583944.md?page=2)