(Bolding mine.) Well, that’s an interesting comment to make, since it is, after all spelled like the first syllable of “error”.
(As far as I’m concerned, all the pronunciations you mention are acceptable. It’s just a bit odd to consider any of them the particular one corresponding to the spelling)
True, but I wasn’t sure of a better way to phrase that. “Error” starts with the “E” sound like in “Fred,” but “err” pretty much just starts with the “R” sound.
Yeah, I understood what you were saying (though there are going to be people who don’t see any difference between “air” and the first syllable of “error”). Your particular phrasing just amused me.
I’m seriously surprised to hear that you distinguish “metal” and “medal” in ordinary speech, though. The only time I’d do that is when putting a stress on the second syllable (thus breaking the normal process of alveolar flapping; note that nobody pronounces “metallic” and “medallion” with similar openings), in order to emphasize the contrast. Are you a native American? Is this a Montana thing?
It’s not sloppy. It’s how it’s pronounced in this country.
ETA: This is not liberty3701, this is Jamaika a jamaikaiaké
I wonder, when Englishmen “drop” postvalic /r/s (making, for example, “formally” and “formerly” homophonous), is that sloppy speech?
I do find it a bit unbelievable that InvisibleWombat has alveolar flapping in his accent, just, apparently, not in cases where it would merge otherwise contrasting words.
I mean, if it’s a natural part of his accent, is he stopping and consciously looking out for homophones before every word? “Ok, I can say ‘little’ and ‘plating’ and ‘Peter’ with voiced flaps, and, for that matter, ‘riddle’ and ‘jading’ and ‘feeder’ can use flaps too, though no one really notices the difference in that case, but I can’t use voiced flaps with ‘liter’ or ‘petal’ or ‘metal’ or ‘mettle’ or ‘rating’.” I’m skeptical. Of course, he’d know better than me how he speaks, but my suspicion is that he has a false picture in mind of his accent. But if he’s sure that’s how it is, that he does use voiced flaps in “little” but not “metal”, then I’m just very curious how that came about, and how it compares to those around him.
Dunno, but there is an entire dialogue scene in Pirates of Penzance riffing on the similarity between “orphan” and “often”.
(Bizarrely, Firefox’s spellchecker does not recognize “dialogue”.)
I wonder whether modern pedants are more likely to go for pronouncing a /t/ in “often” on grounds of spelling or to go for not pronouncing one on grounds of tradition (though not the oldest tradition).
Wow, it’s “dialog” only for Firefox. Interesting.
Well, for my part, while I tolerate it in speech, “often” with a t grates on my ears when it’s sung. I will admit to being terribly pedantic about pronunciation when it comes to sung diction (relaxed considerably when the music is popular/Broadway/etc.).
I pretty much pronounce the first syllable of “metal” like the first syllable of “metallic.”
If you mean “Native American” as in “American Indian,” then no. If you mean it as “born in the U.S.,” then yes. And it’s not a Montana thing. My speech patterns (accent) are really my own: an amalgam of things I’ve developed intentionally and things I’ve picked up in New York, Colorado, California, here in Montana, and the various places I’ve visited.
You have trouble believing that some people speak the way they want to instead of sheepishly following along with someone else’s accent?
How kind of you to acknowledge that.
Again, it came about because I wanted it to. I have my own personal image of what constitutes clear speech and that’s the way I talk.
Your suspicions aside, I believe that I have a pretty good feeling for my accent. I have seen videotapes of seminars that I’ve given and events that I’ve emceed, and I’ve listened to myself on TV (interviewed on the news) and radio (I make my own commercials for my business and several charities). When I was teaching, I worked hard to speak clearly and understandably, and my “accent” is not accidental.
Nice wording. So all those kids learning to talk are just being sheeps when they pick up their native accent from the adults around them? I wouldn’t deny you can consciously pick your own accent; I flip between two or three myself as I choose. But calling people sheeps for learning their accent from someone else is really kinda stupid.
By the way, I pronounce ‘metallic’ as ‘meh-TAL-ihk’, which suggests to me you pronounce ‘metal’ ‘meh-TAL’. That or you pronounce ‘metallic’ ‘MEH-tuhl-ihk’ so that ‘metal’ is ‘MEH-tuhl’. It’s a wonder any other English speaker can understand you with those kind of stress patterns.
IIRC, accent is picked up more from one’s peers than the adults around you, although you certainly begin speaking imitating the adults most immediate to you.
I Am a Grammar Nazi, and while I do apologize for offense taken, I am afraid I shall not be changing my ways., but I will happily answer your question.
I do it simply because I am so passionate about the English language. It is beauty, it is connection, it is life itself because it is the means I use for almost all my communication (intentional, anyway: I also communicate via body language, facial expression and non-verbal tones and sounds, but most of that is not concious), and communication is crucial to my emotional and mental health, my spiritual and intellectual growth, and my pleasure. I cherish the precision and variety of it, I relish the charm, artistry and power.
Unfortunately, the more people who speak and write poorly, the more speaking and writing poorly is accepted, and therefore the more degraded the language becomes. Meanings become lost in lazy speech, which robs the language of it’s precision at first, and eventually the rest is lost as well. Compare the way an average modern college graduate speaks and writes with the way the average person who had completed 9th grade spoke and wrote 150 years ago and you will see what I mean.
Not that I am trying to freeze the language, I understand that it is a living thing that is always changing. But not all change is for the better.
So my little corrections here and there are simply my own tiny (almost certainly futile) efforts to preserve the clarity and beauty of the language I love so well.
How’s that?
(Current Grammar Nazi peeve, since it has seeped so far into the language that I fear it will never be rooted out and it grates on me every. single. time…“continue on” - if you are stumped, think about it: redundant. I really dislike redundancy. One may “go on” or one may “continue”, but “continuing on” is in the same sorry category as “with au jus”, which means “with with juice”.
Out of the many thousands of posts I have written for this joint, one of my favorites was a grammar rant titled “Less semen, fewer sperm, bloody hell!”: I like to think it contributed a little to saving that distinction. Again, if you are stumped: it’s less of a single thing, fewer many things: less money/fewer dollars, less food/fewer meals, etc. One of the reasons I love Trader Joes is because most of the ones I frequent have signs which read, “10 items or FEWER” ahhhh… )
Oh, Stoid. **It is ** to weep.
My fingers do the walkin’…
And here too? And you want to be my Grammar Nazi?!! :eek:
Boy, I hope I’m being whooshed.
I get on a roll and the details get lost, what can I say?
I had trouble believing you use intervocalic alveolar flapping in certain words and not in others on grounds of ambiguity reduction. I had trouble believing that anyone ever uses intervocalic alveolar flapping except through having absorbed it involuntarily and largely unconsciously as a general feature of their accent (intervocalic /t/ or /d/ preceding an unstressed vowel becoming a voiced flap without any conscious decision on the part of the speaker). It would be very strange to me to have this be a process one consciously engages in or refrains from depending on the word and possibility of homophony. But it is in your case, so, that’s very interesting. I’m kinda curious what you sound like, now. Would it be possible to listen to an audio transcript of your accent? Perhaps if you already have something recorded, or we could come up with some illustrative text. I’m not being snarky or anything; I’m just curious what you sound like, with your presumable mix of otherwise typical American accent features and your own distinctive personal features.
Appropriate response, in a thread dedicated to nitpicking. Let me give you an example: The Pennsylvania portion of my family pronounces “eagle” as “iggle.” That pronunciation isn’t supported by any dictionary. If I start saying “iggle,” knowing it’s not proper American English, that’s sheepishly following your peers.
Please go back and re-read the post you’re critiquing. I said I pronounce the first syllable of “metal” (that would be “met”) like the first syllable of “metallic.” I didn’t say a word about stress patterns. I put the stress in the same places that you do–I just pronounce the “T” in “metal” like the one in “met” or “metallic.”
I have trouble believing that anyone would use the phrase “intervocalic alveolar flapping” twice in one paragraph when you’re really saying, "I can’t believe you pronounce the “T” in “metal” like the one in “metallic” instead of pronouncing it like the “D” in “medal.” So I try to be consistent. Why do you have such a problem with that?
Are you ready for this one? I pronounce the first “R” in “February,” too, instead of saying “feb-yoo-ar-ee” like most of my peers. gasp
I don’t have a problem with it in a sense like “I think it’s a bad thing to do.” It’s just that very few native Americans (i.e., people who grew up in the U.S. and acquired an American accent naturally) do so; it’s extremely unusual, not part of any standard American accent (a point noted by Jamaika a jamaikaiaké before), and thus I find it surprising.
I can believe that quite easily. That’s reasonably common in American speech, even if the opposite is as well, and it also seems more of a single word isolated matter, rather than an entire regular phonological process.
Basically, with … pronouncing the /t/ inbetween two vowels where the second one is unstressed the same way one would pronounce a /d/ in the same context. The thing which surprised me is that this isn’t about particular words and the particular representation you have internally for them; it’s not like a “you say pot-ay-to, I say pot-ah-to” type thing. It’s a consistent rule that applies unconsciously, for most people who have it in their accent, so that anywhere the conditions are met, the process occurs. Even though I would say “I wrote down my name” with a normal unvoiced /t/ at the end of “wrote”, and thus basically have a normal unvoiced /t/ in my internal representation of the word, I would say “I wrote a book” the same way I would say “I rode a book”, with a voiced flap, because all of a sudden the conditions apply for the phonological rule to come into play. But of course I’m not thinking consciously about any of this; it just happens underneath that level.
It’s easy for me to picture accents where that phonological rule doesn’t appear at all; they are abundant in many places, such as England. And it’s easy for me to picture accents where that unconscious rule applies almost categorically; it dominates in the U.S., for example. But it’s hard for me to picture accents where the results of that rule apply inconsistently to some words and not others, and where, moreover, this appears to be a result of conscious choice.
That’s just to explain my surprise. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the way you speak. It just is very unusual, and therefore, surprising. That’s all I meant to convey.