# I Pit people who misrepresent Christianity as polytheistic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594 "2009-12-17T04:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/241 "2009-12-24T12:58:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So? The RCC only has whatever authority people attribute to it. It’s not like God is some trade secret that only they have access to and everyone has to use the RCC as their middleman. It’s what they _say_, but that doesn’t make it true. Heck, even among people who really do their best to follow RCC rules (religiously, as it were), there are and always have been schisms and conflicts. > > Personally, I see no reason to trust the RCC’s interpretation of God over that of, say, some random guy preaching on a streetcorner. In fact, the streetcorner guy might actually be more sincere in his beliefs. Catholics believe the Pope was given special permission(One could say) to speak for God when Jesus was quoted to say to Peter,"What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what you Loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven. Of course there are Catholics and other people of different religions that don’t follow what their religions teach. I do not believe as they do, but I believe they have the right to use their own minds to follow their beliefs. I do not have to follow them or believe them. To me belief is a personal thing. One can believe true or false things. Belief is not knowledge! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/242 "2009-12-24T13:12:56Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The fact is, the sun doesn’t rise or set…it seems that way because the earth turns. Ooh, nitpickery! Okay, “I have belief and faith the earth will continue rotating as long as I live.” Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/243 "2009-12-24T13:28:55Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > It’s pretty clear that a lot of people’s devotion to Mary goes way beyond what you describe. Not arguing with that point. Just sharing my understanding of what saints are supposed to be. And I know it’s splitting hairs but one does not pray to saints, you “ask” saints to intercede. I stand by the lobbyist analogy, and it being “insulting” to God would be not more true than it being insulting to senators when you send lobbyists in your stead. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/244 "2009-12-24T13:32:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “…worshipability” is not a necessary criterion for an entity to be a deity. > > … Maybe so, I haven’t see a consistent and universally accepted definition for “deity”. But in my experience, it was a criterion. I always took the 1st commandment and preamble to mean “there’s a bunch of us supernaturals, but I’m the real deal, so only worship me”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/245 "2009-12-24T14:39:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He’s not really an object of veneration? More of a supernatural guy you bribe with milk and cookies; the “jolly old elf”. When non-god supernaturals end and gods start is something of a grey area. Santa is a demi-god. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/246 "2009-12-24T15:17:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Santa is a demi-god. Hmmmm. A half-god “jolly old elf” with the power to travel great distances and great speeds - the product of a dalliance between Titania and Hermes? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/247 "2009-12-24T15:40:39Z")
There’s a vague memory-tickle about some sort of connection between Santa Claus and Faerie. I don’t know whether it’s a Victorian tradition or if it’s in one of L. Frank Baum’s non-Oz books (which would make it an Edwardian tradition, wouldn’t it?). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/248 "2009-12-24T17:16:45Z")
Well, he is a “Right jolly old **elf** ”, isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/249 "2009-12-24T18:24:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, he is a “Right jolly old **elf** ”, isn’t he? Note how between the hat, lots of white hair and beard it’s hard to see his ears… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/250 "2009-12-26T05:42:39Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Maybe so, I haven’t see a consistent and universally accepted definition for “deity”. But in my experience, it was a criterion. I always took the 1st commandment and preamble to mean “there’s a bunch of us supernaturals, but I’m the real deal, so only worship me”. Not talking about worshiping, merely the existence of multiple gods. You can try to define some of them away as mini-gods,creatures with god like powers that are not as strong as a total god if you want to. But the blessed trinity and the devil are hard to make go away. The devil is strong enough to actually defeat god in a final battle. Can you say he is not a god? Then please provide an explanation of what he is, remembering to include the fact he may be more powerful than god. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/251 "2009-12-26T08:48:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The devil is strong enough to actually defeat god in a final battle. I don’t get this dalliance into Satan\* having the ability to beat God. Where do you get this information? The only book that deals with the “final battle” is Revelation, which is presented as Jesus telling John what’s going to happen in the future. And, in it, God wins, even after giving Satan quite a few chances. But, if you want to get into how Satan fits, you need to take a look at Job, where you can clearly see that Satan is subservient to God. He has to ask God for permission to do anything. He is presented almost the same as an angel, which I assume are the “demigods” you referred to. The Trinity is definitely more difficult. It is presented as being inherently confusing, if not downright contradictory. The whole concept is that, what appears to be three different gods working together is really one God who exists in three persons. I don’t believe there is any official explanation of how this is possible. But I wonder what happens if we look at the original text, the [Athanasian Creed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed) The word used for person is _persōna_. It originally meant a mask that actors wore in plays (ala the Greek traditional play), but was extended to the character themselves, and finally to the character on the stage of life i.e., the individual. I propose that, when it was originally written, _persōna_ referred to the personality one presented to the world, i.e. one’s mask or character. Taking this into account, one could see the “three persons” not as God himself, but how he presents himself to humanity. None of these are untrue, but just not Him in His full glory (which, if you’ll remember back in the Torah, God can’t reveal to humans without killing them). This is backed up by the oft used version of God having three “manifestations” rather than persons. I offer this version as being an alternative to the incoherent interpretation most offered today. We can easily picture one person with three different personalities. However, unlike humans, God, being omnipresent, can be in multiple places at once, so His three personalities can exist simultaneously, and have since the beginning. (This is not [Modalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalism), where we only perceive Him in this manner due to our limited capacity as humans.) When interpreting the text in this view, I see no discrepancies, despite the fact that it could have been made much clearer. But, as has been pointed out above, Christianity seems to enjoy its “mysteries.” \*As far as I can tell, “Satan” and “the devil” are considered synonymous, especially in the New Testament, and definitely by most Christians today. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/252 "2009-12-26T13:10:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > (which, if you’ll remember back in the Torah, God can’t reveal to humans without killing them). That’s convenient. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2009, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/253 "2009-12-27T06:48:28Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > That’s convenient. So are a lot of things. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/254 "2009-12-27T07:10:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Poly.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory) > [Mono.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_mononucleosis) And one gives a shit WHY? Oh yeah. With the first try I lucked into what shall never happened while, as as the latter, I sat in the college infirmary (it was a slow stretch) while my neighbor across the hall, a fan of Paper Lace’s “The Night Chicago Died,” lifted for her PJ top for her doctor a few critical inches further than I had managed during a party a couple weeks, resulting, at the time, a reason why she was released before I was. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/255 "2009-12-27T07:21:55Z")
Dare you to re-post that tomorrow morning when you’re sober! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2009, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/256 "2009-12-27T10:57:58Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > There’s a vague memory-tickle about some sort of connection between Santa Claus and Faerie. I don’t know whether it’s a Victorian tradition or if it’s in one of L. Frank Baum’s non-Oz books (which would make it an Edwardian tradition, wouldn’t it?). [L. Frank Baum’s, 1902, _The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_and_Adventures_of_Santa_Claus). CMC fnord! > [@monavis](#): > > … Do American’s worship the Flag? I do not think so!! > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > Well, kinda. We pledge allegiance to it, which is pretty fuckin’ weird. It’s a piece of cloth. … Isn’t that cotton-polyblendtheism? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/257 "2009-12-27T19:33:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t get this dalliance into Satan\* having the ability to beat God. Where do you get this information? The only book that deals with the “final battle” is Revelation, which is presented as Jesus telling John what’s going to happen in the future. And, in it, God wins, even after giving Satan quite a few chances. > > But, if you want to get into how Satan fits, you need to take a look at Job, where you can clearly see that Satan is subservient to God. He has to ask God for permission to do anything. He is presented almost the same as an angel, which I assume are the “demigods” you referred to. > > The Trinity is definitely more difficult. It is presented as being inherently confusing, if not downright contradictory. The whole concept is that, what appears to be three different gods working together is really one God who exists in three persons. I don’t believe there is any official explanation of how this is possible. > > But I wonder what happens if we look at the original text, the [Athanasian Creed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed) The word used for person is _persōna_. It originally meant a mask that actors wore in plays (ala the Greek traditional play), but was extended to the character themselves, and finally to the character on the stage of life i.e., the individual. > > I propose that, when it was originally written, _persōna_ referred to the personality one presented to the world, i.e. one’s mask or character. Taking this into account, one could see the “three persons” not as God himself, but how he presents himself to humanity. None of these are untrue, but just not Him in His full glory (which, if you’ll remember back in the Torah, God can’t reveal to humans without killing them). This is backed up by the oft used version of God having three “manifestations” rather than persons. > > I offer this version as being an alternative to the incoherent interpretation most offered today. We can easily picture one person with three different personalities. However, unlike humans, God, being omnipresent, can be in multiple places at once, so His three personalities can exist simultaneously, and have since the beginning. (This is not [Modalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalism), where we only perceive Him in this manner due to our limited capacity as humans.) > > When interpreting the text in this view, I see no discrepancies, despite the fact that it could have been made much clearer. But, as has been pointed out above, Christianity seems to enjoy its “mysteries.” > > \*As far as I can tell, “Satan” and “the devil” are considered synonymous, especially in the New Testament, and definitely by most Christians today. And what kind of creature would the devil be? You are doing as Christians always do. You are trying to define him away after using the devil for about 2 thousand years. The devil will infiltrate your thoughts and can affect everybody in the world. Yet he is not a god? He has invisible minions who are doing his work. Why are they not gods? You have no trouble using the fear of the devil and his horrible hell to scare people into looking to the church for salvation. Now he is not such a big deal. BS. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/258 "2009-12-27T19:45:16Z")
[How Does the Bible REALLY Desribe Hell?](http://www.av1611.org/hell.html) Here’s how hell is used. It is a big ,scary,deal. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/259 "2009-12-27T21:10:12Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [How Does the Bible REALLY Desribe Hell?](http://www.av1611.org/hell.html) Here’s how hell is used. It is a big ,scary,deal. Wow, this site has everything! Even large section titles in a bright red! And a big, scary cutaway view of the earth. I’m convinced, so I’m converting right now. ---
**Author:** ![Batfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Batfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batfish)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594/260 "2009-12-27T21:54:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [How Does the Bible REALLY Desribe Hell?](http://www.av1611.org/hell.html) Here’s how hell is used. It is a big ,scary,deal. “Earth’s Center Hotter Than Sun’s Surface, Scientists Say”. The article stated that scientists have recently discovered, “THE EARTH’S INNER CORE HAS A TEMPERATURE OF OVER 12,000 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT!” Funny, when science is handy to their point it’s okay. But not that global warming and evolution malarkey! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-people-who-misrepresent-christianity-as-polytheistic/521594.md?page=14)